To Filter or to Educate? Where to Focus our Energies?

“If on Monday, the anti-Internet convention takes a powerful swipe at the latest technology, by Tuesday the kids (and the young at heart) discover something better and faster”. Rabbi Weinberger, The Klal Perspectives Journal

This was a follow up to my previous post Blaming Technology – the latest fad: and was written as an open letter to an event that was to deal with the dangers of the Internet.

We can all agree that the dangers of the internet are real, and it’s nice to see such an effort being made among our Rabanim regarding an issue that is finally being taken seriously. It’s also great that we have finally realized the futility in banning something that was inevitably going to be a part of our lives. Our sages taught us long ago “Ein gozrin gezeirah she’ein hatzibbur yecholim la’amod bo.“ (Halachic deciders should not promulgate an edict if most of the population will not follow the edict). The reason for this principle is simple; the general population will start to lose respect for authority. And while it’s 15 years too late, the past is the past and all we can do is learn from it. But learn from it we must!

The constant focus on internet filters scare me, and heres why.

Filters sound good, but they are not the solution. A filter is only as effective as much as the person using it wants to be filtered. And while it’s a great way to stop pop-ups and inappropriate web-pages, it is irrelevant to the issue we are facing. I will be brief as to why filters don’t work by highlighting some facts people may be unaware of.
  1. TECHNOLOGICALLY– The Internet by design was created not to be filtered. By designing it as a web, no matter how much you try you can’t control the information. Look at the middle east countries where dictators were brought down by social networking. Of course they tried everything in their power to pull the plugs, but the Internet can’t be controlled. The MPAA tried to stop peer-to-peer file sharing and was never successful. The internet was designed in the 1960’s using a system called packet switching so that traffic can always reroute itself, which makes censorship almost impossible.
  2. PASSWORD – When I was just 17 and the web was first starting to explode my father was visited by one of the first “filter companies”. They wanted his haskama. During the demonstration my father asked me what I thought. I sat down at the computer and with a few clicks bypassed the filter. My father told them to come back when my child can’t disable the filter. They never came back. I wasn’t a computer genius and you don’t have to be one. Any child can learn to break even the most sophisticated password protection. All you need is for one person to figure it out and within seconds all his friends will too. And for those without friends they can google it. Monitoring software can be disabled just as easily. So can the “chavrusa system”. Don’t be fooled by the companies trying to sell you their products.
  3. WIFI. Free unfiltered wireless internet is available almost anywhere you go. The current goal is to have wifi available free over the entire USA, as it is already in some cities. Any filter you have at home is irrelevant. Almost every new electronic device has wifi capability. And trying to password protect every one of them is an unrealistic goal.
I remember when some US senator came up with the idea to make inappropriate sites have a button that says “Click here if you are over 18”. He should be awarded the Nobel prize for that brilliant idea!
Filtering and monitoring are necessary, and they work well in schools and public places, but if the point of this upcoming convention is about filters, then call it an expo and make it at the Jacob Javits Center. Its time we deal with the new realities of the day and we must therefore look for real solutions.
Fortunately there are solutions but they take more effort than buying a $100 filter. It takes dedication and lots of time. The good news is, there are Rebbeyim and teachers that are willing to do it. We have B”H in our day a young generation of talent that is eager to help, but they need proper direction.
So, while Filters are important and sound great, I give it an F. An F because it will Fail us and an F because it will Fool us into thinking we solved our problems.
The real solutions all start with an E and they have an Excellent track record.
Education, Excitement, Entertainment, Endearment, Exposure, Expression, Embracement and Enjoyment!
Education – We need to educate our children by teaching them why our Jewish values are superior to the values they see outside (or now, online). We need to teach them how to handle challenges that come their way and stop making believe it doesn’t happen. Life is about making choices and we need to teach our children how to how to choose wisely, whether in real life or on the Internet. When a Rebbi or teacher is unable to acknowledge that his students are using the Internet, he can’t have a discussion about it. When social networking is not allowed, how do you teach online privacy and safety.

Excitement – We need to make our schools more exciting. There are countless organizations that are using technology to make yiddishkeit more engaging and fun; from interactive Jewish learning to smart-boards in the classrooms. With the vast information available on kosher websites, there is so much useful and helpful content for everyone to make use of today.
Entertainment – We need to bring kosher entertainment back to our youth. Concerts, rallies, and overnight trips should be encouraged not banned. Yes, they may learn less now, but in the long run we will have children who love to be Jewish.
Endearment – We need EVERY child feel wanted, both by his family and school. We need to get rid of names like “kids at risk” and “off the derech”. All of us are at risk and we should never judge others as off the derech. Every parent is told never to call their child “bad” because then they will then act bad. Same with these labels, they accomplish nothing. No child wants to go to an “at risk school”. Rabeyim should treat every child as at risk. Schools and parents have to accept every child no matter what level of religiosity they’re at. Never should we make a child feel unwanted because it will cause shame to the rest of the family or because it will give the school a bad reputation.
Exposure In the words of Rav Hirsch, If you keep a child indoors all the time then the first time he goes outdoors he will catch a cold. Instead we must expose them as youngsters so that when they get older and leave the home and face the outside world they will be prepared.
Expression – we must allow our children to express themselves. That means they can ask any questions they have. They should decide the topic of the day and we should listen to what they feel. No student should feel guilty for asking something that’s bothering them. Just as a therapist always asks “tell me how YOU feel about it” we should do the same in the classrooms.
Embracement– we need to embrace technology because that’s our connection to the younger generation. This is the way they communicates and it’s not going to change. When you mock texting, you mock them. When you ban facebook you’re banning them and your distancing yourself from their world. As one teenager told me; “ I’m not addicted to my cellphone or facebook, I’m addicted to my friends,” and who of us isn’t?
Enjoyment – Lastly, we need to make sure our children find enjoyment as being Jewish. Better that we have less tests and let the children have more fun, rather then have them think Judaism is boring and undesirable. Because those who don’t find enjoyment in being Jewish will either leave the fold or stay Jewish but resentful inside, which may even be worse.

We need to remember the words of Chazal “Chanoch Lena’ar al Pi Darko”. This R’ Hirsch says is the golden rule of education of which the Torah requires of us. We have to evaluate each child and see where his/her strengths are and then equip and train them early for that which they will practice when they have outgrown our guidance. Whether it’s the path we envisioned for them or not, we shouldn’t focus on changing our kids but working with them. Read the words carefully “teach them according to their future path” not ours!
I once asked my father why they keep banning all Jewish events, and he told me, because it’s the easy way out. Blaming is also easy. Parents blame the schools and the schools blame the parents. We blame our kids friends and we blame our neighbors. Now we found something new to blame, technology, and it cant even defend itself! In a recent book entitled “Off the Derech” Faranak Margolese interviews many teens as to why they went off the Derech. The three main reasons she found was, a lack of positive feelings, unanswered questions about Jewish beliefs and the ability for our children to develop their unique emotional and religious potential. Technology did not even make it on the list. Sure, the internet can be used as a tool for those looking to get away but so can everything. By blaming technology we lose focus, we should aim to fix the source of the problem.
We can keep trying to shelter our kids more and more until we suffocate them or we can choose to teach them how to live as a frum Jew in the new millennium. It takes work and dedication to find real solutions, but if we don’t, we might as well start preparing for the 2nd convention in five years from now, where I’m sure a new updated filter will be announced!

And so I leave with this question, to Filter or to Educate? Where should we Focus our Energies?

Dovid Teitelbaum
*My haskamas are from the 100’s of teens I know looking for real answers and real direction in this very confusing world we live in today; and from the elephant in the room.

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  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03317324329377546457 Rivkah

    Dovid, you write so well and to the point. I hope all the wonderful people that attended this Ichud Hakehillos will read the above. Everything you wrote is so right. You have a very healthy perspective of the youth of today.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 David Teitelbaum

    Thanks, its because I am a kid at heart!
    Also i don't believe anyone is going to go. word on the street.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02071619589784244759 BarryM

    Wow! So I'm not insane…. So glad to see there are others. For the sake of all our children, I hope this reaches the right people and does change the system!

  • Anonymous

    well written. people everywhere should read this. everyone knows the issue but no one has the guts to actually say it! we applaud u for that

  • http://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=28354 Baltimorelife

    Perhaps instead of keeping on saying 'no' the institutions represented by the Rabbanim will start to develop Internet content of their own that will be attractive, such as Torah, information, and entertainment. If they are just going to badmouth it and say that we all need filters, it will be been there, done that. The result will be a huge waste of everyone's money to put on such a dog and pony show, not to mention a demonstration that the Rabbanim are out of touch.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11269082272529955891 shtern bruch

    David I cannot agree more Everything is so true and well written, I wish your word goes out there to the right ppl, but unfortunately I'm afraid this blog won't do much these ppl are going there way regardless of its making sence and even with the past bad experience,
    My point is to teach your kids the right way and all you can do is hoping some other ppl to follow if they get to read this,
    Let's all hope moshiach to be here soon

  • appreciate teen

    Finally one man that writes it as it is… as a tee., we need people who aren't against us and aren't trying to talk away everything from us. Thank you for publishing this!

  • Anonymous

    Great writer however first all our rabbanim should stop using computers and go back to pen and paper. They have to show the way. Words alone are futile. Kids realize when out comes from the heart or just a good drusha or writing.

  • http://www.ishtetl.com/index.php?/topic/1910-an-open-letter-to-ichud-hakehillos-regarding-the-convention-at-citi-field/ Indigo

    I agree with the blogger. Filters are a way to help someone who wants to minimize stumbling on something that he doesn't want to. It is useless if someone wants to do something unkosher. It is a false sense of security. I f further agree that solutions lay in education etc. it is much more difficult than the easy answer of filters.

    The assifot help raise awareness but are stupid and useless. The answer is getting people to internalize kosher values. Just like voluntarily turning off the electricity to your house is not going to keep someone from being mechalel shabbat. You get people to observe shabbat by convincing them of the value of keeping shabbat.

    Kudos to the blogger.

  • http://www.ishtetl.com/index.php?/topic/1910-an-open-letter-to-ichud-hakehillos-regarding-the-convention-at-citi-field/ Nooch

    I completely agree.
    Its no different than kashrut or other inherently Jewish practices at odds with the rest of the world. You educate your children as best possible. Not Just in the laws, but the appreciation for them and how to deal with outside influences.

    Its what Yaakov Avinu did with Yosef haTzadik, its what Yosef HaTzadik did withy his children and its what we need to do with ours.
    It is no accident that we bless our children "Yesimcha elokim k'Efraim Uk'Menashe…"

  • http://www.ishtetl.com/index.php?/topic/1910-an-open-letter-to-ichud-hakehillos-regarding-the-convention-at-citi-field/ Indigo

    They are calling it a celebration of achdut. The organizers probably have no idea the majority of orthodox jewry will be celebrating and thanking God for the open miracles of the Six Days War on that day.

  • Berel

    Excellent piece. Excellent. You hit the nail on the head!

  • Anonymous

    Gevaldig wow .also they should make sure every boy is exceptet in a yeshiva

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I hope so too. the more people share the message the better chance we have. So please send out to people you know.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Or im naive to think we can do something about it. 😉

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Thanks. But at some point they will have to face the truth. I hope sooner than latter.

  • http://hasidicrebbele.blogspot.com hasidicrebbele

    Reb Dovid,

    if anyone is disagreeing with you is either blind or doesn't even know what blindness is. when blogs began, this is what i was writing about. then MANY others joined and we weren't able to change anything.
    why?

    what ideas of changing the system do u have? who do we change and how many do we need to change before the rest start following?

    how do get everyone to love themselves because Hashem loves us all more than we can fathom? because then only can we start loving others.

    we need more than writing on blogs.
    any ideas?

    keep it up and wishing u great hatzlocho

  • Anonymous

    "The Chofetz Chaim says, the proliferation of newspapers that contain lashon hara, slander, and divisiveness, exists only when the readership is willing to accept this fare."

    The above is from a previous post of yours. Can you provide the source? Thanks.

  • http://baltimorejewishlife.com/news/news-detail.php?SECTION_ID=1&ARTICLE_ID=28354 BaltimoreJewishLife.com

    I agree wholeheartedly with the article, very well said. Unfortunately, if this is only online you're preaching to the choir and this needs to be in print. For the online audience it needs to be stressed that the the problems our Rabbis are worried about are real and that they are truly well meaning. We need to work with them, respect them, and empower them to help us remain pure in our service to Hashem and use the resources of the Internet in only positive ways.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I tried in print and they trashed me. read about it.
    http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/04/view-from-under-bus.html

  • Anonymous

    I give you an E for Excellent! Powerfully written, very very true. Times have changed, and education has to conform and reform in order to keep our children frum.

  • Yidel From BP

    Mr. Or Rabbi Teitelbaum!

    I'm giving you a double "E"

    I AgreE and DisagreE

    I AGREE that the current generation most adjust to the current challenges and I'm not sure in what neighborhood you live in but in many neighborhoods it changed and its changing gradually.

    You're right in the ultra frum community's its not taking place yet! Reason could be because they tent to realize, recognize (or Acknowledge) the problems much latter In the game. Its a huge challenge to restructure the chinuch system!
    Lots of work (Team Work) needs to be done!
    too much to discuss on a comment on a blog!

    I DISAGREE with you!

    I think you just have the facts wrong!
    The Kinus is not to talk about installing filters! (as far as I understand from the leaflets they mailed) the kinus is to be Meoirer the Tzibur about the dangerous of the Internet (and don't tell me its not) everyone should face it and decide by them self how he wants his children and Doiros to deal with it!
    All they want is the Oilem and the Rabbunim to take the situation dead serious!!
    Of course every community is different and they should set their own Rules standards!

    Hagan Harav Solomon is not naive!
    They are writing it very clear they want to work WITH it and not AGAINST it!
    Yes there will be kiosks for The Jnet, The Filternet, Yeshiva Net, Etc. Well its a perfect venue to get some customers why not? But I truly believe they realize the world has changed and all they want is the chushiva Yiden to understand the severity of it and take the appropriate steps to WORK WITH IT NOT AGAINST IT!!

    Thanks,
    Yidel From BP

  • Anonymous

    Dovid, every word is emes, but I don't know if this (blog) on a blog-site is the right place for it to have the Real affect what were looking for, first of all you need the rabunim to help you, also if all (90% for sure) the rabunim have 1 daas torah (to do the Ichud hakhilos) you can't just wipe it off with a blog, you have to show respect for the rabunim on whom klal yisrul are looking up on, and talk with them about it. And let's hope together we will help Klal Yisrol.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Here is the thing. The papers refuse to print anything. read my other blogs if you dont believe me. They all told me the same thing. i agree with everything you write but I dont want my paper to be banned. Also most rabonim (90% for sure) do their own thing today. They dont listen to what the Ichud says, but they too wont speak up. They are scared to, and I know this for a fact. Everyone is scared that if they disagree or even take another opinion they will loose everything. Look, you even posted anonymously.
    All I wrote on this page is what I think needs to be done. I was careful not to mention names, just ideas that I feel most people agree with. Be my guest and print this out and show it to them, Id love to know what they feel about it.

  • Moshe

    I was highly impressed w this blog untill I got to the last part. Why is it that u mock this great effort before u fully know the intent? From wht I understand it to be meorer the tzibir and to face the challenge w the utmost seriousness and integrity. Therefore I can't agree more with yidel from bp.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    First I dont know what you received in the mail, but the pamphlet in my shul in lakewood had just one solution, filters. Everyone agrees the internet is dangerous, that did not seem the point of the asifa to me. Adiraba, if they are looking for answers then i hope they read my letter and take my suggestions. It seems lots of people want a new approach. I never said Hagan Harav Solomon is naive, those are your words!
    Also the words they used is "we cant live with it…" thats different than what you wrote, to work with it. Those are two opposite approaches.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    i was going to reply to him. They had a brochure in my shul and the entire thing was about how filters is the new answer. Maybe i should post a copy.

  • also want to know

    where does the chofetz chaim talk about newspapers?

  • Anonymous

    Dovid Writes:
    Our sages taught us long ago “ Ein gozrin gezeirah she'ein hatzibbur yecholim la'amod bo.“ (Halachic deciders should not promulgate an edict if most of the population will not follow the edict). The reason for this principle is simple; the general population will start to lose respect for authority."

    Doesn't the same hold true when you write up an entire blog mocking Rabbonim who finally agree on something positive ?
    Do you really expect your teen to begin respecting & looking up to our authorities after reading all this ?

    Please reply:

  • Anonymous

    Excellent and thought-provoking. But white text on a dark background make for difficult reading.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    "who finally agree on something positive" Can you explain what that means? What have they finally agrees on thats positive?
    thousands of frum jewish websites have been created over the past 15 years and they have constantly banning the internet. In your opnion every frum website is a mockery to rabbonim. The fact that everyone uses internet today despite the "rabbonim" banning it, is what created the lack of respect for "rabbonim". Not my article. you got it backwards.
    My teens B"H have many Rabbis and Rabbonim to respect and look up to. Not every Rabbi banned the Internet. duh

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I think i got it from here http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/oppenheimer-1.htm
    . I didnt check the source because I felt it was obvious and you really dont need the CC to tell us that.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I think i got it from here http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/english/journal/oppenheimer-1.htm
    . I didnt check the source because I felt it was obvious and you really dont need the CC to tell us that.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    BTW in your view you are mocking rabonim by posting on the internet and even worse so a blog. hypocrite.

  • Anonymous

    Wow, Dovid. Wow.

    Having been zoche to know your father in my youth (knowing him as "UNCLE ELI"), I can honestly say that I believe he is smiling at you right now. I thank you for being as open and honest as you are in this letter, and for telling it like it is.
    Unfortunately, the masses who blindly follow anything that the Rabbonim say are sheep and will not take seriously any words that may be ANY different, no matter how correct they are. These people look to the Rabbonim as the "be-all, end-all" of knowledge and that is certainly NOT the case. While they are giants in Torah, a lot of the gedolim are fed information…or MISinformation…or only one-sided information by their "askanim" who have their own agendas (for anyone who says this isn't true, Google "Big Event Lipa", as an example) and have the Rabbonim to wield the power that they, themselves crave.
    This is NOT a "bash Rabbonim" post, it is simply an admission of truth: the sheeple who follow along with whatever the Rabbonim say, no matter what, are contributing more to the destruction of our Nation than any internet site is. There are many children and teenagers who rebel against the "establishment" because of the lack of accountability and the unwillingness to adhere to the "..al pi darko" tenet.

    Sheesh. Look at me. I could go on and on…but it's your blog, not mine! :-)

    Thanks again, Dovid!

  • Anonymous

    BRAVO!

  • Daniel

    Reb Dovid,

    While I agree with what you are saying in your "Eight Es", it does not mean that filters aren't a good idea. They still make it harder for a kid to access inappropriate content and are therefore a good first step. But you are right, no one should fool themselves into thinking they are the be all and end all.

    Daniel

  • Anonymous

    The points are excellent and I can't imagine anyone not in agreement. The question is:

    What are the practical steps to implement the 8 Es? Ideas are nothing without a practical way to implement them.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Corerct and thats my i wrote "So, while Filters are important…."

  • Anonymous

    I agree with most of what your saying, I just have a question on one thing,in terms of exposure, how do you just expose a kid to what is happening, Just let him do whatever he wants? (what did you have in mind by that?) Also one thing that I feel should be pointed out more, is that we MUST star to instill a sense of pride, pride to be Jews, pride for our values and pride for who we are, I think that being proud of who we are may be the only hope for all of us to tackle these spectacular times and to stand up to who we are and what we hold is correct.. Thank you for speaking and saying words that everyone else is just scared to say!
    KOL HAKAVOD!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Your right, but step one is to acknowledge it. There are many seforim written about this way of education, I just named them with E's. I would start by reading Rav Hirsch, who faced the same issues when the shtetle broke down and the jews were exposed to an Age of Enlightenment. He was a master in education, a rosh yeshiva and credited as saving yidishkeit. Most of our current yeshiva system comes from his philosophy, unfortunately we started veering away in the late 80's. not sure why?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I agree, pride is very important but it didnt start with an E ;-).
    Exposure is very delicate and the balance is very hard. I think it goes back to "al pi darko". I wrote about it here.
    http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/03/sheltering-our-children.html

  • Good Luck. You’ll Need It

    R. Dovid:

    Thank you for a well-reasoned article. A few points, however.

    1. I use webchaver at home (my wife is the chavera)and am confident that it is being used properly. The application will also alert her when the computer is not in use to see if another computer is being used. It is not failsafe and was never intended to be. But it is an effective geder in my home.

    2. As I recall (I don't have the book in front of me, Ms. Margolese's poll indicates that the single largest cause of off-the-derech yidden is the behavior of frum yidden! This is an issue for which rabbonim need a kinus.

    3. When yeshivas are closing the high school track for the weak boys who aren't yet serious about their learning (two in Flatbush next year) and one high school won't even accept its own elementary school graduates, how do we expect to hold on to our children? If someone presumes that the "best" boys will save us they are sadly mistaken. Time has proven that even the aleph boys in the aleph shiur in the aleph yeshiva can fall victim to society's potholes.

    4. Our educational methods were approved by R. Moshe and R. Yaakov ztl,gedolim who are no longer with us. Since 1986 our hadrocha has been from Bnei Brak via Lakewood. In my opinion, these rabbonim do not identify or understand mainstream Orthodoxy. Outside of the Breuer-kehilla, your opinion is not the chareidi standard. R. Dovid Landesman has several excellent essays that discuss the yeshivish vs. the yekkishe approach.

    5. I have only one disagreement. Facebook is a cancer. Jew or Gentile, young or old, nothing good will come from it. It destroys families, provides private info about too many people. Perhaps create a different social medium. Facebook is a recipe for disaster.

    Hatzlocha!!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/17433480719606119966 Sam I am

    I agree with Daniel and Rabbi Teitelbaum. Filters are good ideas for anyone but obviously will never stop someone who is determined… What drives me nuts is the fact that all of us do have legitimate issues with our so called askonim. yet most of us never get off the couch to do anything about it. These 'askonim" are doing what they are doing, rabbinim are basing their decisions on the information they are fed. yet us brilliant minds just blog about it.

    Until some of us smarter guys start becoming askonim, don't expect anything to change.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Thanks for your comments, but I disagree with point number 5 completely. I dont want to respond to it because im in the midst of writing about it and will post shortly…

  • Anonymous

    I am glad that someone forwarded your article to me. I am brokenhearted as I watch a whole generation of potential maskilim emerging from the sheltered farfrumte chinuch of our kids today. What are these parents thinking? Threatening their kids with gehenom if they learn secular subjects is going to work? No limudei chol in yeshivos is the right chinuch? The existing most beautiful generation of Torah in history was produced by parents who learned in Yeshivos that incorporated limudei chol. They had balance in their education. But with boundaries. Your way works. Teach right from wrong and make sure your kids love you. Make them happy and proud. That way they will love what you stand for. Kol Hakavod.

  • deep in bnei brak

    This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

  • Anonymous

    yeah right, there is no censorship on the internet

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I specifically wrote im going to censor this blog.

  • curious george

    Let's dream for a minute…. Let's dream about schools that don't worry about getting their 8th grade boys into the top yeshivos, intensifying the curriculum and making it very hard on half the class.

    Let's dream about a tzibbur that doesn't look down on each other for 100 different reasons.

    Let's dream of bais yaakov schools where "concerned parents" don't call the principal to snitch on girls who aren't conforming to dress standards in their private time.

    Let's dream of what we all really long for. Happy, inspired, enthusiastic Jewish kids!

    Banning is not the way! Must all of the above only be a dream?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02342514545704647594 Posen

    Well written.

    A few points;

    As you said, exposure is very delicate. It is not pashut at all. See Ohel Yaakov (Dubno Maggid) on the pasuk "Adam Ki Yamus b'Ohel". As I heard from a Rav, we can not feed treifos to our children.

    The fliers you read are probably corporately sponsored – printed by the filter company, so it is not a proof to the intent and plan of the Rabbanim.

    Along the lines of your letter, with a phone for $5 from BestBuy, anyone can connect to the net. We must fix the disease, not the symptoms. We are making more walls but not dealing with the underlying issues. But as mentioned above, you need to have simple and practical solutions to implement your E's.

    Kol Tuv! May you be Marbeh Kavod Shamayim and cause only Kiddush Hashem.

  • Anonymous

    R' Dovid:

    Great piece. I wonder whether as jews in golus an event such as this should be displayed in such a public way, at the home of the Mets. Is there not something unpalatable about that (and could this not have been done in say, Ateres Avrohom or the like)?

  • Daniel Adler

    Good Article.

  • Anonymous

    wow!! FINALLY THE TRUTH BEING WRITTEN. LET'S START SAVING THE FUTURE NOW! and guide our kids to love Torah! love Yidishkiet and love a fellow jew as much as you love yourself

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Its another great point. I was looking it up over YomTov and it seems very questionable. Dont have time now to go into it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/10561579952913345322 MindySchaper

    Totally agree. The first E is the best and most prevalant. What exactly do we think "chinuch" is all about?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/12004224884586199494 Avram

    The $150,000+ being spent on this event could:

    – Feed 3,000 Families for a Shabbos
    – Give 50 of the top m'chanchim a $3,000 bonus for their hard work and enthusiasm
    – Pay for 30 kids to go to sleep away camp and get a true Torah experience
    – Pay for 7,500 kids to go to a baseball game and experience some "Kosher' fun

    Priorities…

  • Anonymous

    The most salient and informative comment in this "Open Letter" by Dovid Teitelbaum, Director, Camp Sdei Chemed International, was,
    "My haskamas are from the 100’s of teens I know looking for real answers…"
    These are the haskamas that count. Hamayvin Yovin.

  • Dovid Levine

    R' Dovid, you write very wise words. Filters can assist with willpower. If we choose to live a kosher, healthy life, installing a filter will help us uphold that choice. By installing a filter, I send myself a message that I really don't want to go places that will decrease my healthy living. It gives me an additional step at which to consider if I want to make the wrong choice. And it makes the wrong choice less accessible and less urgent. If I am forced to have a filter, it just becomes another annoyance I might do my utmost to bypass.

  • Anonymous

    R' Dovid I like your profile picture.

  • Maitiv

    Reb Dovid, I was a friend and admirer of your father z.l. and totally agree with your response to the internet. I would add that the "machers" who own lucrative ad agencies and newspapers always find solutions which require big dinners, publications and full page ads. Anyone who reads H and YN can see this to be true. Sadly, prominent rabbis have members of their own families who outwardly seem pillars of the orthodox community but secretly have another persona which plays online. The average frum family suffers less from that than the elite, and much of the response of the organizers is in response to that. You can imagine what family life is for people who lead such a double life, an utter disaster.
    It used to be said that the first cigarette was always in a bathroom, the first inappropriate adult behavior in the back of a car, and most plans for wrongdoing involved confirming plans over the phone. But it would be foolish to ban bathrooms, phones and cars.

  • Anonymous

    2 THINGS ,1: THE FILTER YOU DISABLED WAS INSTALLED ON A COMPUTER , DID YOU KNOW THAT SINCE YOU WERE 17 THERE ARE SOME BETTER OPTIONS ( LIKE THE SERVER FILTERING CONTENT )?
    2: DID YOU EVER HEAR OF AN ISSUR CALLED YICHUD ? ( AND MANY OTHERS LIKE IT …. A GEDER ?!! )

  • Anonymous

    ACTUALLY JUST READ SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS ……… HOW OLD ARE YOU NOW ?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Yes they do and if they were up on the Dais and the Rabonim in the crowd I would be there in a jiffy!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Im 36 now, why?
    read my 3 reasons I wrote and i covered new filters.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Exposure is very delicate. Please read my other blog about it. http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/03/sheltering-our-children.html

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Or just pay for everyone's internet connection, and filter software.
    BTW does anyone know who is paying the bill? like who specifically?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Thanks anonymous cousin. Yes my father passed away during the Lipa fiasco and I still have some very strong letters he wrote but were never published. I know Lipa personally and I could tell you that he does so much for unfulfilled kids privately. That tried to destroy him but he won in the long term!

  • Anonymous

    The biggest sponsor is the owner of B&H; ( $250k for downpayment on Citi Field ) I would say he knows a bit about technology ….. HE seems to think that filters are worth a shot….

  • Anonymous

    NO one thinks or said that filtering is THE solution ( like you so eloquently lead everyone to believe ) but it definitely HAS to be the normal standard .

  • Anonymous

    I have been dealing with " kids at risk " before you were 17 ( and still today ), and while you WERE right till a few years ago sadly today you are definitely WRONG . I come across many boys and men ( and girls ) that were successful and happy …… till the INTERNET .

  • Anonymous

    correct me if I`m wrong . you are from those in klal yisrael that believe that the gedolim of our generation are out of touch ( as those like you always said of the gedolim of their time from r` yochanan ben zakai down to the chafetz chaim ) nothing against your point of view ( as i`m not religious ) just curious …..

  • Anonymous

    what does reading your profile help if you totally contradict it in your article ?????!!!!!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/01476343409123125420 Unknown

    Rabbi Teitelbaum,

    I have been following your opinions on this issue quote closely my position on the subject tends to align closely with yours.
    The Boston Consulting Group recently conduct a study with regards Millenials and their use of the internet. Although the study was not conducted for our community specifically, I think that many people would be surprised by the overall results.

    Millennial Consumers: Engaged, Optimistic, Charitable [STUDY]

    http://tpt.to/a2rbd5n

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    I commented previously when you posted on this topic – here http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/02/blaming-technology-latest-fad.html (1st one) but I'd like to expand on it:

    You acknowledge that filters are not an absolute solution, and you seem to agree that the real issue is what is driving people (of all ages) to seek out the dangers of the internet. It seems to me that the Kosher alternatives you are pushing do not completely address the cause either. Perhaps they direct people's attraction to "something satisfying", to kosher outlets. That might work to some degree, but if those outlets don't satisfy the urge, they'll be driven to the non-kosher outlets. Think of Jewish music – over the last 10 years there has been an explosion in all genres of Jewish music. Real talent has risen to the occasion. Yet, many many of our teens are pumping non-Jewish music into their ears, and I don't mean Mozart and Bach. There's an urge (to escape?) and it will look anywhere to be satisfied.

    So it would seem reasonable not to temporarily redirect the urge, but to address what's *driving* the urge. Why are people looking to escape into some sort of distraction? Why are they not comfortable in their own skin?

    What I have learned is that when people are in pain they seek out medication. When they're not in pain, they don't even open the medicine cabinet. The truly happy person is one who is Sameach B'Chelko – happy with himself, his life, what he has. People are not happy with themselves and we would be wise to look for solutions that help them (all of us!) be happy, content, at peace. Here's a funny question – does the Torah have anything to say about how we can be happy with ourselves? What do you think?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    …and so do I

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I agree with him, but I find that so ironic, why would he want to support these rabonim, when all their speeches at the Agudah Convention were saying how bad technology is. Watch the youtube videos and you will hear them saying that technology is all bad. I was accused for being a godol hater because I wrote technology can also be used for good. Why would an owner of BH want to associate himself with this point of view. According to them he should be responcible for all the problems of todays generation and children going "off the derech" I dont get it. here is my story if you want to read…
    http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/04/view-from-under-bus.html

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Let me just add that I acknowledge you did address the cause I highlighted, and not just the symptoms, but I think it's important to put the major focus on the discontent and less on the kosher alternatives.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I agree.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Your experiences are very different than mine. I am in contact with hundreds of boys and have never seen the internet make them unsuccessful or unhappy. Can you explain the relationship?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    You are wrong, its complicated for an outsider. But Ill try. Orthodox Jews like myself all believe in the Torah and the Talmud. We also all follow the Shulchon aruch (The law book). RYBZ and CC are very very much respected by orthodox Jews. But throughout jewish history there have always been arguments as to minor details of the laws. The Talmud is full of debates. Today the orthodox jews, which includes modern orthodoxy, chasidim and so many new names like ultra or post chareidi still all follow the basic principles outlined above, they just have very different ways of expressing it, such as the clothing. But because the world changed so much over the past century and changes even faster today all these rabbis have to come up with ways to cope with the new challenges (just like in the non-jewish world). And so like the saying goes, two jews, three opinions. And thats what all this commotion is about. The article above was directed at just one group of orthodoxy which some call yishivish or in Israel chareidi. They have their Rabbis with their opinions who they listen too (until recently, where the internet ban they imposed was unrealistic. They realized it now and are trying to deal with it. My letter was directed at them with my views on the matter. I like many others believe we should focus on educating more then filters. These debates are going on in the non-jewish world too, its just that by us the Rabbis are taken more seriously. I hope I explained it well.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Not sure what your saying. I can respect and question at the same time.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I think we all agree. Thats what i meant by my last E, enjoyment. Teenagers are born to be rebellious, its part of their nature. This is across the bored, nothing jewish about that. The non-jewish music world was always changed by the younger generation that wanted to express themselves. Happiness is a very Jewish Value, but I think breslev takes it a little to far.

  • http://bookkill.com QCoverage

    I agree with much of what you said and really appreciate your bravery at tackling such a controversial issue. I disagree with you on one issue – that filtering can work. Filtering any computer that is used for business or college level work is completely impractical and it will become even more so over time. I have an online company and am working in a startup right now and i can tell you most of my work would be impossible with a filter. Most people who work in any sort of business are as frustrated as i am. The problem is if the filter blocks something even once that it shouldn't it can cost a business a lot of money. This is only practical on private family computers which are not necessary for work related purposes. I think this was a well written article though and keep up the good work.

  • Anonymous

    What?!?! Are you not familiar with countless cases where the internet has led boys AND girls to the lowest levels of Tumah? Did you not read the letter in the pamphlet from the girl where her internet addiction led to chilul shabbos? Are you that clueless whats going on?!?!

  • Anonymous

    "until recently, where the internet ban they imposed was unrealistic."

    Which ban are you referring to?

    They said that to have internet at home, one must have an ishur. They are not changing that.

    Internet was NEVER in itself BANNED. They just said that no child with internet at home will be accepted to schools if the parents don't get an ishur.

  • Anonymous

    "It’s also great that we have finally realized the futility in banning something that was inevitably going to be a part of our lives."

    As I commented above, internet was never banned per se, but they made a takana that parents who need internet at home must obtain an ishur. That is not changing. They will still require an ishur. So what exactly are you hocking here?

  • Anonymous

    "And while it’s 15 years too late"

    What are talking about. Where you not at the asifa in bais faiga a number of years ago? Already then they addressed the internet issue, and now that they see the countless additional korbonos created by the internet, they're doing further hishtadlus

  • Anonymous

    "If what I read in the pamphlets is true and our huge solution is filtering…"

    Are you implying that until now filtering wasn't necessary?

    Are you seriously trying to state that the issue the Rabbonim have here, is that till now they didn't require filters, which led to all the internet issues, and from now on the rabonim will require filters?

  • Anonymous

    What you wrote in #1 is relevant to the web in itself, its completely irrelevant to establishing controls on ones own computer.

    You didn't answer the question regarding #2. Were you succesful in cracking 2012 filters?

    And whats your point about wifi. Kids who are determined to see what they want will get it one way or another. The point is that us parents have to do all hishdatlus that our kids should not get nichshol by what we bring into our home. And regarding that, if we equip our computers etc with filters that won't allow shmutz, then on that computer, they won't access it via wifi either. So what exactly was your point?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Im sorry but I think you are being fed misinformation. Im glad you brought up that letter because I read it and its baloney. Its not the way Girls talk It was written by an adult to seem like a girl wrote it. I have many letters from girls and they dont sound that way at all. A girl wont blame her problems all on an ipad. It was written by someone who wants us to believe that the problems are the ipad!

  • Anonymous

    ok so the letter was baloney so what ?! it was a boy not a girl so what ?! are you really not familiar with people going off the derech ( and getting divorced …… ) who were previously perfectly fine and it all started with the internet ( from this to that to porn ( addiction )….. I mean really WAKE UP …… YOU are so out of touch!!!!!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    IDK, You tell me, from the pamphlet I saw it talked all about filtering. What is the point of the asifa?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Exactly as you say. They addressed it by banning it and thats why nothing changed. Thats was the point of the article to give new ideas.

  • Anonymous

    ok so the letter was baloney so what ?! it was a boy not a girl so what ?! are you really not familiar with people going off the derech ( and getting divorced …… ) who were previously perfectly fine and it all started with the internet ( from this to that to porn ( addiction )….. I mean really WAKE UP …… YOU are so out of touch!!!!!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    First of all you can google the internet and see copies of all the bans. Second can you tell me what this asifa is for if they arent changing anything? What does this new slogan, cant live with it… mean? please explain, because me like so many are confused.

  • Anonymous

    " i was going to reply to him. They had a brochure in my shul and the entire thing was about how filters is the new answer. Maybe i should post a copy."
    PLEASE do …. I saw the same brochure as you( in the same shul ) and that is not the point , and not THE solution …. I don`t like like screaming at people but seriously you sound like a small child taking one point( of many , awareness chizuk etc…) out of context to pick a fight !!!! ( please don`t make yourself out to be so naive to really think that the whole point of the whole asifa is to give everyone a filter )

  • Anonymous

    even if the gedolim want to make their point on whatever they have to,why waste money on renting out citi field with 40 thousand fans,when there will be a siyum hashas with 8o thousand people speak then!!!!!waste of money doing it at citi field stupidity!!!!pure stupidity!!!

  • Anonymous

    I "heard", B&H; photo dropped one million on this event

  • Anonymous

    "read my 3 reasons I wrote and i covered new filters."
    No you did not cover new filters and please answer the question about yichud .
    your 3 reasons
    1: created not to be filtered …. IF YOU ( the user )doesn`t want it filtered . I get my internet through Jnet , I CAN NOT get onto you tube etc. In the arab world the users do not want to be filtered .We however I hope do .

    2: PASSWORD – When I was just 17 …… ok Please come to my house and try bypassing my filtered server in the year 2012 when you are 36 .( all my teenage computer geniuses can`t )

    3: WIFI. Free unfiltered wireless internet is available almost anywhere you go …. I am in the telecom / wireless business so let me tell you it`s not true . and the GOAL of having wifi allover the USA is not going to happen for a long time ( so till then it`s worth enacting " solutions " ) . most people are not going to watch porn in starbucks or their neighbors front porch etc….. so filtering internet at home takes care of a large part of the problem . ( yes not the whole problem )

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Please list the other points that were mentioned?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    First i didnt say it was a boy. I said it was some adult making up a fake story why this girl went off, just to blame the ipad. Thats manipulating the public. I have in my hands many letters from teens that speak about why they are so unhappy being jewish and none mention technology, porn or the internet. Its one BIG lie. Why dont you read the book I mentioned where she interviews kids and see what they say!

  • Anonymous

    Don't give me cowardly lame responses. Provide me with a link showing they outright banned the internet.

    Whats the asifa for? Go and find out! Have no patience? go discuss it with your Rov.

  • Anonymous

    YOU DON'T KNOW??? YOU REALLY HAD A HAVA AMINA THAT UNTIL NOW THE RABBONIM DIDN'T REQUIRE FILTERS???? MY GOD, YOU ARE SOOOO CLUELESS

    One the main conditions in getting an ishur was that you have to get a filter.

    You feel confident slamming the rabbonim for being 15 years late bla bla bla when YOU are completely cluelesss about whats going on.

    You really thought that every last detail was going to be mentioned in the pamphlet?! Whats the point? I'll tell you what "IDK"

    I don't know why a 36 year shnook think he's smarter than gedolim who have been involved in dozens (if not hundreds) of korbonos who fell due to the internet

  • Anonymous

    Again with your clueless responses. THEY DID NOT BAN IT.

    They established the ishur system, that the schools will reject children from homes with internet where the parents did not obtain an ishur, but they did NOT place a blanket ban on internet use.

  • Anonymous

    And how exactly do you know its fake?

    Here's how. Because a 36 year old guy got numerous letters from girls with issues, and none of them wrote him any such stories.

    MY GOD!!! your logic is soooo krum, its frightening!!!!

    I personaly know of SEVERAL boys whose ruchniyus are completely shattered due to the internet.

    And why do you trust margolese more that Rabbi Solomon??? Have you ever even attempted to ask him for his side of the story?

  • Anonymous

    Why haven't you answered why chazal had to establish issur yichud?

    WHAT HAPPENED TO WILLPOWER???

    If Chazal didn't trust you with that frummie kollel lady in the room, would they have trusted you to sit in front of a computer where you can access the 50th sharrei tumah in a matter of a few clicks????

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Thanks for calling me a shnook Mr. Anonymous. Its easy to call other people names when you hide your identity.

    First you still never answered me what the point of the Asifa is? But lets just assume you dont know.
    I have been on the internet since day one. I didnt slam the rebonim. I even wrote "we" as in all of us to be polite even though I felt as a child someone should teach me about the new world we were facing. I had questions myself, like all kids but the topic was off limits because "they" compared internet to porn and it was not even mentioned. But me and all my terrible friends went online anyway, we used our 14,400 bps fax/modem and when no one was looking we entered a confusing world we faced for the first time. Things we didnt understand and nobody was there for us. Why, because a letter was sent out to the rabbayim and teachers not to say anything about the internet, not even an email address. This letter was still being sent last year.
    But the main problem I have is that your still convinced these korbonos (bad word by the way) fell because of the Internet. No, if anything they fell because we denied the internet and so we never educated them.
    Every kid wants to see what he is told not to. Its the nature of teens. But we have methods to deal with it as I outlined above in my EEEEEEs.
    You can scream all you want but you cant change the truth!

  • Anonymous

    stop making the brochure the focal point of the asifa . I repeat " please don`t make yourself out to be so naive to really think that the whole point of the whole asifa is to give everyone a filter "

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    So for the last time CAN SOMEONE TELL ME THE POINT OF THE ASIFA?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I hope you really want to know the answer to your question so im going to reply. Have you ever wondered why there is no issur yichud with your wife while she is a Nida? The Yereim says, because we do not make decrees on the community that people will not be able to uphold. I rest my case…..
    And for the last time I wrote filters are important! just not the solution.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Wow you are in the wireless business and you are so uninformed. I have an app on my phone that shows me everyplace I can get free wifi. But I dont need that because i can get wifi free from my neighbors while I sit on the toilet.
    Anyone can break or bypass the filter and if they cant they can google it. I am willing to show it live at the asifa. And you "hope" your teenage computer geniuses cant' , but youll never really know, will you?
    And dont say you trust them because then, why the filter. its a logical trap.
    And here is the link to free wifi. The internet is great to find information so quickly.
    http://wifinetnews.com/archives/2008/01/san_francisco_gets_free_wi-fi_courtesy_of_meraki.html

  • Anonymous

    chizuk… awareness for the uninformed ( of the extant of the problem and yes there are a lot of those ) …. and as the skulener rebbe said so that 40,000 yidden can say shema together and daven that this monster we sleep with doesn`t destroy thousands more …. and yes to TRY and make it the basic standard for EVERYONE to have a good filter ( the vast majority of us do not have any sort of filter )

  • Anonymous

    YICHUD
    actually the main reason is because of " libo gas bah "( remember chupas niddah ) so if you are already in that situation with the porn on the internet……… enough said

  • Anonymous

    "IMPORTANT BUT NOT THE SOLUTION " YOU are the one who decided that THE solution is a filter because of what the "brochure" implied , so get that out of your head . and according to your expert advice to the uninformed why get a filter …. no point ( if your kid could teitch a pasuk chumash he could easily bypass the filter )

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    They need to come up with better ideas to get a message out. I posted my blog on facebook just once and within 48 hours I received over 50,000 hits! When people like a message they re-post and re-post. And when they dont like a message they ignore it.
    Is the 40,000 thing like some kind of segula or kabalistic thing? Is this the worst problem we yidden face today? My community in Marine Park is doing just fine with the internet. We teach our kids and spend time with them we implement the EEEEEs and B"H I haven't heard any problems from my friends.
    I dont know the rebbes community, but maybe people are looking for ways to get away and the Internet is a great tool. Maybe they should look at the source of the problem. Just saying

  • Anonymous

    "i can get wifi free from my neighbors while I sit on the toilet"

    ok so because of your and many other toilets filters don`t help . got that logic . and no they can`t bypass it because if i can`t i can reasonably assume that 99% of people can`t ( the only way i am able is to hack the server of my provider which i can but do you know anyone else who can ? ) yes I am in the " business "

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I happen to be in IT also. just like software hacks all you need is one person to figure it out and then everyone has it. Its also sometimes not about cracking but thinking outside the box, and kids are very good at that. I really dont want to turn this blog into a hackers guide but anyone can google it for themselves.
    Listen parents are naive about their kids. Every teen parent I speak with tells me their son doesn't have internet access. What should I do tell them im friends with their son on facebook! I'm not a snitch.

  • Anonymous

    "Listen parents are naive about their kids…"

    Thanks so much for explaining the need for the citifield asifa

  • Anonymous

    So if Dovid Teitelbaum hasn't heard of any problems, it means there aren't any.

    Your twisted logic continues to astound me.

    Absence of evidence is NOT evidence of absence!

  • Anonymous

    The basic answer to ishto nida is because Pas B'salo, but with others, chazal understood that willpower and EEEEEEEEEE's are not enough and the best route is to avoid the situation completely. Hence, we have an issur yichud. Sechor Sechor Omrim L'nozir. So please spare us from your "willpower" speeches. When it comes to issurei arayos, chazal didn't rely on our willpower and neither should you.

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    You know I agree with you from my previous comments, but I have a question. You've tried publishing your thoughts in the paper and that hasn't worked for you. Have you tried calling up some of the Gedolim behind the Asifa and asking them why there appears to be little focus on the core issue of discontent and fulfillment in our community, and only filters are being stressed? Wouldn't that be the most respectful way to address the issue? Standing from afar, voicing your opinion, and generating critical discussion would appear, from my view, less constructive and lacking in the appropriate approach to Emunas Chachamim.

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Here's one more point I was discussing with someone last night. I think this was raised by others in the comments, yourself included, but I just want to make it clearer:

    While there are many who have already heard about the dangers of the internet, the teens and families that have been destroyed as a result of unfiltered access, there is a very large portion of the frum community that have not heard about it, or have heard but remain in denial. There's never been an Asifa of this size and it would seem that the goal is to get the word out to practically everyone, once and for all, that unfiltered internet is threatening everything we hold dear. The frum community needs to be shaken to the core, to realize that we're nearing rock-bottom.

    Yes, you and I agree that the core issue is the lack of fulfillment, Simcha, contentment – whatever you want to call it. As a result I truly hope that the contentment issue is stressed at the Asifa, just so I can feel secure knowing that our Gedolim are in touch with my reality (I like to say I have Emunas Chachamim, but I have a long way to go until I feel that way 100%.) At the same time, perhaps that message will fall on deaf ears since it's only a message. It's such a huge issue that there may be no easy solutions that can be offered on one foot. Filters are practical solutions that people can implement.

    Quick Mashal: If there's a treacherous road without guardrails on a mountain and people are consistently driving off the cliff, the first thing to do is build a guardrail. The core problem is that everyone is driving too fast and not paying attention, but set up the guardrail and then work with the drivers.

    Once filters are in place as the norm, maybe then, and only then, can we say the truth: internet and technology are not the problem! Our Ruchniyus is the problem! Technology has been H's Shliach to wake us up to the fact that if we don't find fulfillment in our relationship with H', then we will lose everything. I would really love to hear that message at the Asifa, but if it's not said maybe our Gedolim have assessed the larger community as not being ready to hear it… yet.

  • Anonymous

    There are stories of M'chabrei Seforim who wanted to look something up on the 'net, and accidentally stumbled onto problem sites and things went downhill from there. These are people who had the EEEEs, but also have a Yeitzer Hora, as we all do. If the Asifa just makes it self-evident/obvious/well-known/required/accepted that no one should own an unfiltered computer, that will be a terrific first step. Unfortunately, there are many people out there who don't recognize the need. No, the filters will not stop someone determined to bypass them, but that doesn't mean we should leave the doors unlocked.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    My letter was, an open letter to them….
    They can take it or leave it. From the response im getting it seems they should try some of my ideas it seems like people want it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Again, I wrote filters are important, but not the solution.

  • Anonymous
  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    I think picking up the phone to speak with them would be the respectful thing to do. I don't know their approach to open letters. I'm sure it's not true of you, but they may interpret open letters as a voice from someone who is not interested in discussion and learning, but just wants to be heard. I don't even know if they'll hear of your open letter from their Askanim. I think asking them directly, whichever one you're most comfortable calling, will prove most beneficial and respectful. Not doing so would put your sincerity in question.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    OK. Can you give me a phone number? There is no website info.
    Ill report back to let you know how it went.

  • Anonymous

    A little too idealistic for my taste.

    Growing up I had a passion for the arts and creativity. But “it was not for a yeshiva bocher, a yeshiva bocher needs to spend all his time learning” These were not even the words of my parents but the words of outside influences to my parents. I wanted to learn an instrument, take art lessons. I enjoyed being creative, painting, acting but there was no outlet for it in the frum community. My personality was squelched and I had no passion for anything particularly learning and became very depressed. So while my creativity and passion for the arts was never realized… neither was a development in Torah study. I performed poorly throughout elementary and high school but “strangely” once I was out of that environment I exceled in collage, even won several awards. I later developed a tremendous appreciation for ‘yiddishkite’ (Judaism) after learning about it through bal tishuva books and organizations. The biggest failure of unsupplied information which is never shared in yeshivas is to love G-d, they only teach to fear him which creates distance.

    Today there are so many outlets for kids to express themselves in many ways we couldn’t years ago. Skiing, organized sports, play productions are all commonplace now in yeshivas – naturally to keep kids away from the internet and other evils of course- where as they were not allowed when I was growing up. I believe if you crush a child’s innate passions you crush there particular way to learn. A passion for basketball or creating videos for the internet (appropriate ones of course) will give a child an understanding of what it means to be passionate about SOMETHING, they can then be directed to understand why they should be passionate about learning torah, – which is difficult for even most adults to understand.

    It’s nice that you have wonderful ideas on how to change the yeshiva system, implementing them is another story. The “Yeshiva World” runs the yeshivas and does not understand the majority. If you try and make a yeshiva that is more ‘open minded’ it becomes ‘modern orthodox’ and core values can sometimes be lost. A proper balance of protection, exposure and discussion is needed for children to face an uncertain future in the outside world AND inside yeshiva world.

    The answer really lies within. Parents can only do what they feel is best for their children, Rabbeim can only teach what they know but all children eventually grow up and are responsible to discover ‘what is truth’ for themselves, it is the struggle of life. In 10 years the internet will be an issue of the past, just like the “Shtuse Box” (TV) and the Yeshiva World will start worrying about more important things like bugs in food and unfiltered sinks again.

    On a positive note, progress is being made. Blogs and discussion forums, such as this one, on the (“evil”) internet, where open dialog can be shared with thousands of people is a source of great education to all and will evoke positive change and for those grappling with the internet the Asifa at Citi Field will help them… it’s called balance.


    Jewish Brother

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    I don't have a number, but you can get R' Mattisyahu Solomon's number just as easily as I can. Some hishtadlus asking the right people should produce the number if you're driven to speak to him.

  • Anonymous

    Dear Reb Dovid,
    I did not read you write up and I will explain why.
    Horav Solomon Shlita and The Skulener Rebbe Shlita are Gedolim that are reachable. You could have spoken over you concerns with them directly. You chose instead to convey publicly that you do not have emunas chachomim. If we only respect Gedolim when we agree with them, then it is ourselves who we respect. Not the Gedolim! What you did was be Mevaze Gedolim Brabim. You are the Ultimate Letz Echod that Chazal describe. May Hashem give the wisdom to see the error in your ways. May you find a method of teshuva that will help you atone for this chillul shem shomayim berabim.
    A true friend, and former admirer.

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Actually, I read that R' Mattisyahu might be hard to reach because of health issues – he should have a Refuah Shelaimah! Perhaps seek out Rav Ephraim Waxman in Monsey, or Rav Malkiel Kotler in Lakewood. You should be able to find someone high up to speak to, again, if you're driven to speak to someone and get answers.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Dear, true friend, and former admirer.
    Im so happy you posted that because I would like everyone to see what you wrote. Here you are, being ANONYMOUS, calling me all kind of names and accusing me of things I never said. I will only respond to you after you post your REAL name. A name that anyone could see and contact like I did.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Dear Brother,
    I agree with your points. But the Asifa will only help if they take on the real issues. If its another ban, just this time with filters then we have accomplished nothing.

  • Anonymous

    you are more then welcome to ignore me with the logic that i choose to remain nameless.
    you did not however answer the point. i assume that is because you agree that you should have gone to speak with horav solomon shlita, before doing the irresponsible open letter show.

  • Anonymous

    I will be the anonymous #2
    He did not accuse you of saying ANYTHING. Your response to him is childish and makes it look like he is right. Did you try to accomplish your goals with respect first? Do you have a Daas Torah that permitted you to do this? Do you have emuans chachomim when you disagree? Are these not important questions to answer, regardless of who is asking them????????

  • Anonymous

    R Matisyahu Salomon (732) 363-8928

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Thanks Anon. OK R' Dovid – looking forward to your report back.

  • Anonymous

    I called you a shnook and for good reason. When a 36 year old has the Azus to take on Gedolei Yisroel and he is clueless about the issues, then he's a shnook.

    1) You keep on mentioning "the ban which is being replaced with filters". There never was a blanket ban on internet. Only an ishur system which required filters.

    2) You refuse to believe that there are kids off the derech due to internet, when its common knowledge that there are countless such cases. Call the top lakewood mechanchim and find out for yourself.

    3) You use totaly immature krum logic – the letter in the pamphlet from the girl must be fake, since no girl ever wrote you anything like that, must be girls don't write like that.

    4) Gedolai Yisroel who have been involved in numerous cases of fallouts due to the internet after extensive meetings and discusion reach a determination to create an asifa, and people find it important enough that they're willing to give heavy money in sponsorship, but you do nothing more than read a pamphlet and conclude that its all pointless.

    So yes, I still consider you a shnook

  • curious george

    Gedolai Yisroel have missed the mark before. Is it krum to say that?

    At beginning of bayis sheini, chazal tried to asser shemen of a nochri. The tzibbur couldn't handle it. They didn't abide by it. The takana was therefore not chal.

    Were klal yisrael all krum for not abiding? Were the chachomim right in making a gezeira that rov yisroel couldn't keep?

    Please Anonymous, or … Anonymous, :-), what's your understanding of this? I think it's very relevant to this issue.

  • curious george

    If there are other shitos that wouldn't approach the problem this way, and you know that the Rabbonim arranging the assifa won't consider those shitos, and you've seen that Rabbonim's advice hasn't been working thus far, what's left to do?

    Kids and adults are very disenfranchised and this Assifa will likely make matters worse. Just the announcement has already created much laughter from the kids. If you were in touch with them, you'd know that.

    So DT should go to them and then be told "sorry, you have no say"?

    He is trying to help, not be disrespectful!

  • http://bookkill.com QCoverage

    1) Talk to rabbonim in lakewood about what they feel about having the internet with filters – they are not in favor of it and have railed against it. The filter system is incredibly impractical for 97% of business users out there.
    2)when ever someone says something is "common knowledge" that is a cause for doubt. how in g-ds name do you know that. There are many reasons kids go off the derech and the internet may be a facilitator but it is not the reason – instead of talking to mechanchim talk to psychologist and kids at risk and you will hear a very different story. there was a psychologist in mishpacha magazine who was quoted as saying that lakewood has the largest percentage of kids that go off hmmm.
    4)This is because a certain "gadol" has shown insensitivity towards working people in the past who need the internet and looks down at them as if they are a bunch of schnooks. how is an asifa a way for ideas to be discussed come on you can't be that ignorant have you ever been to yeshiva before?

  • Anonymous

    Rabbi Teitelbaum,

    First thank you for printing a very interesting article that presented another well spoken opinion.

    My question after reading you article is:

    Have you attempted to contact the Agudah to see if the Moetzes would support your position? I am just wondering if any of the elder Rabbonim in the U.S.A. have been receptive to your (valid) points.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Well said. I want to add one more point. When a parent comes to these rabonim complaining about their kid going "off the derech". They will never blame themselves or the yeshiva, so they tell the rabbi, who has never used the internet, that they think its the cellphone or internet. And the rabbi buys into it. Its so much easier for them to blame a device. A device they dont really understand much about.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I dont know. Its very hard to contact them. They dont have a website or email that I know of. Ichud doesn't either and people are telling me different names of who is really in charge. What I mean is who calls the shots. Besides for that this was an open letter to them so I hope somebody out there would show them these suggestion and use them. This blog has now over 50,000 views. Im sure someone up there can see it.
    But realistically if I did meet with them before I wrote this they wouldn't have even acknowledged me. In not even a Rabbi.

  • Anonymous

    Why do you need a website or email? Who cares "who is calling the shots"?

    I think it would be the most effective if you would explain you position, rather than having one of your readers.

    Why don't you call any of the elder Roshei HaYeshivos [many are easily accessible- and they are listed in the phonebook]? I'm sure you will able to get through to at least one of them, if you try…

    Don't you think it will be very helpful for you to be able to present the response of respected Gedolei Torah, when you discuss your ideas with them?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    OK, Ill be more blunt. I tried speaking to one of them that said my views were against gedolim. I spoke really gently and politely and he was rude and didnt care. he even hung the phone up on me. I have a recording of the conversation. I still believe that he was an exception and the rest are all caring and warm, but I came to realize that a post with some better suggestions than just filtering would be a more effective way to get heard.

  • Anonymous

    i have read Your replies and which ones you agree with. it is clear, very clear that you have emunas chachomim in YOURSELF, and consider yourself a godal.

  • Teen friend

    I do agree with what you are expressing because Im frum marrried with kids but young enough to understand the very young adults/teens. My only issue is with the aspect of facebook and the friending. Not from a social aspect, rather what shows on your homepage when someone else likes or comments on a photo or link . Even if you have a non frum relative on fb who thinks nothing of posting pictures of an outing to the beach. The teen can choose but what happens when he /she does open a web page like fb and find pics of others and the like, you know what it takes for a teen to be that strong? I know many modern dat "frum" teens and few would turn it off- what do you think?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Im not sure what you mean. I only responded to the ones that disagreed because I hoped to explain my position. There are thousands of Rabbis that take my position. I dont even call myself a Rabbi so how could you say such a thing?

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Someone offered the Lakewood Mashgiach's phone # above. Please try calling him or someone else of Gadol stature who is involved. Don't be discouraged by an abrupt Askan, even if he has Semicha. (Getting Semicha doesn't make you a Mentch. If it did I would finish my Semicha in a jiffy!)

  • http://shuvubanim.wordpress.com Keevee

    Oh – and you're not a nobody. Your father a"h is a household name.

  • Anonymous

    There must be an elder, respected Rav, in the United States who you will be comfortable in calling (without be hung-up on).

    How about Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky or Rav Aron Feldmen (both are view as manhigim, tzadikim, and gedolei torah in America, and are part of the Moetzes)?

    Why don't you call them today, and discuss your ideas?

    Then you could present their very respected opinions.

    A key point is that you could present a level of dialogue, that you DISCUSSED (didn't tell) your ideas with Gadol "a" and Gadol "b"- and "this is what they said."

  • Anonymous

    You say that you only reply when you disagree. this is a lie! look back at all your comments that say " well said" or "i agree". you are playing with the fire that the mishna in pirkei ovos says to be fearful of!

  • curious george

    Ladies and Gentlemen, read the last 2 Anonymous responses and you will see the nastiness that some of our brethren are using to manipulate the conversation.

    Calling DT a Gadol basher and a lier, and warning him that he will burn from the fire of the chachomim.

    Very shain.

    But I understand.. this is a milchemes mitzvah. Nothing personal…

    Perhaps such kind Askanim should be given remote software to check up on each of us and make sure we're behaving properly. Wouldn't that fix all our problem?

    Mr. Anonymous, I sure hope you aren't a Rov or in Chinuch! You might be part of our problem.

  • Anonymous

    to curious george,
    how do you want a lie to be poited out nicley?
    Ok Shaiflelh you forgot to tell the truth this time dovidle sweet heart" is that better?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    On the side that you really do want to know what is going on, ill let you in. Not only was my letter aproved by rabonim but after I wrote it, I got hundreds of emails and phone calls from great rabbis of the community telling me how much they loved what I wrote and maybe this will make a difference. The fact than none of them can this stuff publicly is a BIG problem and thats what im dealing with now.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    If you thought I lied than I get it. But thats not what the askanim are saying. They are saying i am "Against das torah". and that is the biggest lie of all!

  • curious george

    My point was you are getting nasty and I see it as a siman for what's to come from all this spying on each other, putting up walls, and fixing.

    In the past decade we have witnessed more than the internet boom. We have witnessed the takana and assifa boom. It ain't working but they just make them bigger and bigger.

    I suppose the next assifa will be at MetLife Stadium. It seats over 80,000! Maybe we should lock it in already. We'll pick a topic later!

  • Anonymous

    Please understand that my point was for the benefit of your position. If you have spoken to Gedolei Torah, and they approve of your message- then why not share their names?

    As soon as you are able to present the names of respected manhigim who endorse your ideas, it will refute all the nasty attacks against you (as seen on this site). More importantly, it will strengthen you argument, and many more will take your side.

    I'm sure some of the "hundreds" of Rabbonim would agree to have their name publicized…

    And again, did you speak to Rav Aaron Feldman or Rav Shmuel Kamenetsky? I'm sure they would not "hang-up the phone on you."

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Your asking a great question, and the answer is so sad. These rabonim are under major pressure from the moral mafia. I do have all their contacts and I am in touch with the all through email. But mentioning names at this point without their permission I wont do. I have all the emails and phone calls recorded but unless I get the ok from them I will never do it. They might feel they have a better chance of improving the terrible divide in klal yisroel (as you can see from the positive reaction by so many comments to my letter, not just hear but on VIN)by remaining under the radar. That is their choose not mine. I come from a family that believes in speaking up, no matter what. I also have nothing to loose, because my teens and parents I deal with agree completely with and so they wont care if im am banned or called an "anti godol". The rabbis you mentioned I havent contacted but I have so many that Im talking to right now and more ane more each day. Also you mentioned two names but how do you know they are behind this. From what I hear the names keep on changing, so unless im sure im speaking to the right person its useless.

  • Anonymous

    I mentioned those to Gedolei Torah since they are famous for their tzidkus and yashrus, and have shown countless times that they will state their opinion, even if it is not the "trend." In short, they are known to seek and speak the emes. I have no idea if they are involved with this "asifa." That was not my point, I was simply noting that they are respected Rabbonim who have tens of thousands of talmidim and followers. It would seem to be common since to attempt to discuss the topic with them. If they endorse your view you will have a much easier time persuading others.

    Why don't you at least try to call them today, and write what happens?

  • Anonymous

    Reb dovid, if its a lie, why don't you respond to the question of wheather or not you reached out to Horav Felman or Horav Kaminetzky. Both have spoken out on topics like molestation and homosexuality, and do not shy away from the tough topics. Your claim to be machshiv daas torah is suspect at best. You have neglected to answer the direct questions about this, and are hiding behind the defense of, since you are not saying your name, i won't answer answer the question. it does not work for any free thinking people.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Ok. First Im starting to hate the word "das torah" because there are so many rabonim out there that have different opinions on the matter. and im not even refering to modern orthodox. Im refering to rabonim in my community of flatbuch. To say that I havent gone to two names that you mention is ridicules. People have given me other names to. Like I said this is a long process of first responding to all the rabonim that called me (all positive BTW). than my own rabayim i personally have connections with. And even they have different opinions as to what my next step is. Im certain by now my letter reached these people and if they think I can help in any way they would contact me, like other roshei yeshiva did. I am very respective of tamidei chachmim, and all jews, unlike the last kanaei rosh yeshiva that hung up the phone on me!

  • curious george

    What is the pshat? Why are there so many Rabbonim, Roshei Yeshiva, Mechanchim, parents, kids, who understand what you are saying 100% and yet the only one brave enough to put his name to this conversation? I of course, am very clear as to who I am! :-)

    The teirutz is we are intimidated to say what we think and be branded as mechutzafim. But believe me, we aren't! We actually crave direction from our leaders. But we know from direct observation that it seems that haven't seen, that this won't work. We wish they would show us the way.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    "mechutzaf?" I wish. They call me a "gadol Hater", a person that goes against "Das Torah" and this list of lies gose on….

  • curious george

    Well if it's any comfort to you, my only friend is "The Man with The Yellow Hat" :-)

  • http://onthemainline.blogspot.com S.

    Ploni Almoni: "I called you a shnook and for good reason. When a 36 year old has the Azus to take on Gedolei Yisroel and he is clueless about the issues, then he's a shnook."

    When did 36 become the new 14?

  • Anonymous

    I see you`re having a problem with yichud ……

    "The basic answer to ishto nida is because Pas B'salo, but with others, chazal understood that willpower and EEEEEEEEEE's are not enough and the best route is to avoid the situation completely. Hence, we have an issur yichud. Sechor Sechor Omrim L'nozir. So please spare us from your "willpower" speeches. When it comes to issurei arayos, chazal didn't rely on our willpower and neither should you."

    "YICHUD
    actually the main reason is because of " libo gas bah "( remember chupas niddah ) so if you are already in that situation with the porn on the internet……… enough said " looking forward to reading the response of RABBI teitelbaum .

  • Anonymous

    Did you attempt to speak to Rav Aaron Schechter? Any of the Roshei Hayeshivas from the Moetzes??

  • Anonymous

    "just like software hacks all you need is one person to figure it out and then everyone has it."

    ok Mr in the IT business let me know when someone " unfilters " the whole Jnet and posts it online so that we can all have a party !!!!!!

  • curious george

    DT has actually said again and again that he is not a rabbi.

    Your attempt to degrade DT is actually degrading yourself. Eizehu m'chubad? Hamechabed kol Adam. This is similar to another converse tactic of calling someonewho has smicha, but you don't like his shitos by the title "Mr."

    Both are quite childish and are megalleh that the "groise talmid chochom" who uses such a tactic, is lacking in basic human dignity. If you don't understand that term, perhaps Google it!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    You still dont get it. You dont "unfilter" things, you bypass them. I already offered a challenge to the Asifa to access inappropriate material live at the Masiba, and they can use any filter they want.

  • Anonymous

    Dear Rabbi Teitelbaum

    I greatly admire and respect your strength to come out with an open letter to Klal Yisroel where you express your opinion using your own name. (Unfortunately I and most others don’t have that)

    Reading your letter I was impressed to see how careful you were in keeping the respect and koved Hachachomim while at the same time expressing your viewpoint of the problems that surround all walks of Klal Yisroel.
    I would like to point out two issues:

    1)Going thru the comments that people wrote it is painfully obvious that up until a certain point all comments were written with refined language and respect to kuvod habrios, as our chachumim taught us. Unfortunately at one point the comments are starting to a get a very unjewish face, nasty , defaming, even going as far as calling you an apikorus that doesn’t follow das torah. I would like to ask all these nameless people, if your opinion (shita) is the real emesa derech why don’t you do what our chachumim teach us “Divrie Chachumim bnachas yishmuin- the words of the wise is heard thru a calm voice” people who have the real Mehalech don’t have to use derogatory language, attack or slander others

    Let me tell you how I see it: Today we have several askanim who think they are (or want to be) the flag carriers of klal yisroel, they got wind of the blog after it had already spread far and wide. Wanting to stop this widespread blog they unfortunately resorted to using cheap tactics by defaming the chusheva writer. Rabbi Teitelbaum, Chazak vyamaitz, don’t resort to their lowly standards

    2)But why does it have to be this way? Why can’t we work together?
    With the scope of such a problem, before making any major decisions we should hear the opinion of/ involve at least 1000 people, send out surveys to all mechanchim, rabbonim and even lay people within the broad jewish community, listen to their opinion as well, then decide on the best path.

    As it stands now, there is a group of several askanim with a loud voice (flag carriers) who took a few Rabbanim as their front runners for the ichud, and at every asifa the askanim say their opinion to the rabbanim. (and the rabbanim have no choice other than to agree because otherwise they will be the next on the list to be slandered), thereafter it’s forced onto the klal. As it stands now, it appears that this ichud h’achdus will cause consequences such as, sinas chinum causing strife between parents and their children as well as conflicts between parents and mosdos hatorah.

    My jewish brothers, please wake up now don’t let a few askomim who don’t truly mean our tova dominate our lives. Computers and the internet are here to stay. Let us work together, lets here everyones’ voice, and as Rabbi Teitelbaum writes use all E’s with the filters for the benefit of our children.

    A Jew who wants AM YISROEL CHAI TAMID

  • curious george

    That could be the entertainment! (Kind of like watching Harry Houdini getting himself out of being all chained and locked up!)

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    NEW ASIFA AD. Ok we have an new ad now that tells us some reasons to go. Let me hear from the audience. adhttp://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/04/new-asifa-ad-will-you-be-there.html

  • curious george

    Zayir gut gzugt!

  • curious george

    It has a list of people on the steering committee but I can't make out their names because the print is very small. Are we to assume these are the key people involved or were these people asked by the Askanim to help?

    Without getting into lahaon hora, do these people have any history in being involved in such Asifos?

  • Anonymous

    "Rabbi" Gotlieb needed a job after his school in Lakewood collapsed, so he opened the Ichud.

  • Anonymous

    At the end of the day, it seems that you are fighting a loosing battle if no one of note is willing to back you publicly…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    From what im getting its this one guy "Gotlieb" that is behind the whole thing. But its hard to get information because everyone I speak with that was at the meeting seems to be telling me different things.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    So then her are the rest of the people and why is his name not listed on the ad?

  • Anonymous

    Teens go off the derech for many reasons; When there is a difficult family situation, when they feel that they are being lied to or patronized, when they have insecurities, just to name a few. The internet may be a SYMPTOM of being off the derech, but a healthy, well-rounded teen who can have an open and honest dialogue with his/her parents will have no reason to go off the derech. If that were the case, then the gedolim would have to ban WINE and ASPIRIN. A teen who is in pain is looking for "trouble", if it's not the internet, then it's drugs, alcohol, bad friends, unhealthy behavior, or criminal activity. You can't ban everything, you have to NURTURE everyone.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    For those that asked me to see the hateful and ridicules article of Rabbi Nechemiah Gottlieb, Director of Ichud, the organization behind the Asifa, read this post,and then think about whether you want to be part of an event run under his leadership!
    http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/04/rabbi-nechemiah-gottlieb-director-ichud.html

  • Anonymous

    when you say no loshon hora on your blog, do you only mean if its about someone that you agree with?????

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296 LazerA

    Just came across your article. While I am also rather skeptical of the effectiveness of filters and similar such approaches, I don't really see how your suggestions would really address the problem either.

    With regards to most issues (e.g. social media, anti-Torah blogs, etc.), the internet is simply an extension of the usual issues we have always had to deal with regarding non-Jewish influences (through social interactions, books, and, in more recent generations, radio and television), and, in my opinion, the approach you have laid out (while I disagree with some of the details) is basically the correct approach. So, if that were the whole problem, or even the main problem, with the internet, then I would basically agree with you.

    However, the internet has created one problem that is, for all intents and purposes, entirely new. This is the easy and risk-free availability of free pornography. The internet makes it possible for anyone, of any age, to access pornography with virtually no risk of exposure (or even minor embarrassment).

    All the normal safe-guards that, in the "old" days (like the 1980's), would help a person who struggled with this problem are almost entirely useless today. All it takes is a moment's weakness, and a little privacy, and the damage is done. There is no buffer zone, no intermediate steps.

    It would be nice to think that the kind of positive program you have outlined would help with this problem, but the reality is that the urges that cause a person to view pornography are not so easily dealt with. Certainly, over the long term, as a person develops spiritually, the desire to view such material should diminish, but even that requires that the person avoid looking at such material in the first place. It is a near impossibility for a person to bring this desire under control when he is regularly involved in it.

    Unfortunately, I don't know if there is any truly effective solution to this problem. While far from a true solution to the problem, filtering and monitoring software would probably be beneficial for at least some people. Your "solution", however, even if it could be implemented (which is questionable), would not do anything whatsoever to address this issue.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Your bringing up a topic that I wasnt going to talk about but in short here is my take.
    Porn, while bad, doesn't turn people off from yidishkeit. I think of it as another terrible addiction such as smoking. It needs to be dealt with but kids shouldn't feel like they are crazy if they are caught with it. Thats all I would like to say. Im sure there are people way more qualified to deal with this issue.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    If you know anything about the Halachos of Loshon Hara you would know that an article that was already made public like the FJJ is allowed to be shown. I just reprinted the hateful and ridicules article gotlieb wrote. Its on the FJJ site for anyone to see. Unfortunately his own writings make him look like a complete fool, I cant help that. Also at this point I have enough verified information on the guy that I am willing to consider him an individual that is dangerous to Klal Yisroel and must be hold accountable!

  • Anon1

    The alienation of followers from the leaders has created a situation where the leaders' proclamations on current matters are often tuned out. Until the broken relationship is repaired, very little of value can be accomplished. It's not enough to talk AT people.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296 LazerA

    Pornography is obviously a distasteful topic, but there is no question that it is the primary concern motivating the upcoming "internet asifa" that you are supposedly writing about. (The distastefulness of the topic is one of the reasons why other issues tend to get talked about more often.) Yet you have not even attempted to address the actual issue at hand, and instead you have proposed an alternate solution to a different problem!

    The simple reality is that internet pornography is a massive problem affecting our entire society. Even if we ignore the ruchnius issues, the reality is that pornography is deeply harmful, especially when a person is continually exposed to it (as opposed to the "old" days, when you had to buy a magazine which you then had to keep hidden).

    In your response, you imply that the primary harm from pornography is that "kids" are made to "feel like they are crazy" when they are caught looking at it. The reality is far worse than that. Pornography would be harmful even if there was no social or religious shame associated with it.

    Even if it were true that pornography doesn't "turn people off from yiddishkeit" (a claim of which I am deeply skeptical, especially in connection with adolescents), this is not the only metric of value in Judaism. There is no question that looking at pornography is both forbidden in of itself, leads to additional aveiros, and is deeply corrosive of both of one's ruchnius and one's psychological well-being.

    It is rather odd to criticize the efforts of the organizers of the upcoming asifa (and of the numerous rabbonim and gedolim that support it) while ignoring the primary issue they are trying to address.

    It's perfectly valid to criticize the apparent over reliance on filtering as a solution to the problem. People need to be aware that these programs are far from being a cure-all. But proposing alternate "solutions" that simply ignore the problem that the asifa is intended to address is irresponsible.

  • http://harediandproud.wordpress.com/ Harediandproud

    Re:Original article.

    Your solutions are valid but you're missing the point. The longer version

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    If you thought this Asifa was about porn than your making a big mistake. It was about the fact that these "kanaim" are being exposed one-by-one on the internet. I have a lot of proof but ill give you one to think about.
    A big percentage of my hits are coming from ISP's that are from the very companies they want to show at the expo. What stops me from posting anything inappropriate on my blog (never-mind the fact that Im ruining their business)? Think about it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Im going to respond on my blog so that you dont delete my reply.
    Notice though how you have to remain anonymous and I dont. In my blog I said filters are important but you seemed to ignore that. Who is to say you arent trying to sell a filter product or ISP to the public that they shouldn't have to purchase. K9 and other filter software has been around since the beginning of the internet and it was always free. A simple ad in the paper to notify the public about that would have been a good idea, dont you think? you claim the internet was never banned (which is a lie) so than how come the Chareidi papers never put in ads to the public to download these filters over all these years. Think about it. The public isnt as stupid as you think, they get whats going on.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    What you are saying is SO true. Many Rabonim are silently complaining about this.

  • Anonymous

    Thanks teitelbaum, for once and for all admitting that you have an overblown ego which was deflated by a such mentioned kannoi. Hence, your need for revenge on them by gloating about them getting exposed. If you can make such a blatant stupid statement that the main concern here is not about porn, then you are the biggest ignorant fool I've ever met.

  • Anonymous

    "Notice though how you have to remain anonymous and I dont."

    Notice, that in the long run, Gotlieb will be supported by the gedolim and you will remain the fool.

    "you claim the internet was never banned (which is a lie)"

    No, its YOU who lie.

    Rabbis Salomon, Waxman, Kamenetsky etc etc NEVER outright BANNED internet. If you have proof otherwise, then show it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/10463856909521693296 LazerA

    I'm not following your reply at all. There is no question that the primary concern of all frum people and rabbonim about the internet is pornography. Of course, there are other legitimate concerns as well, most of which are simply extensions of age-old issues of allowing foreign influences into our homes and minds. The internet has certainly had a major influence in this regard, but the only area where the internet has created a fundamental change is in regard to pornography.

    It is certainly possible that some of the organizers of the asifa have ulterior motives as well. Perhaps some of them really think that they can somehow eliminate the internet entirely from the frum world (although the asifa organizers specifically say they have no intent to do so), thereby protecting themselves from criticism. However that is clearly not the primary concern of the overwhelming majority of the rabbonim and other supporters.

    I'm not clear on what your point is with regard to the hits on your blog from the ISPs of companies that "they want to show at the expo." I assume from your comment that these are companies that are owned and staffed primarily by frum Jews. I'm not sure why you would find it surprising that a disproportionate number of your readers come from such companies. This is especially true if you are, as you wrote, "ruining their business." If they do see you as a threat to their company, then obviously they will be reading your blog. Even if they don't (which is far more likely), if you are writing on topics that are closely related to their business, it would be surprising if they didn't regularly read your blog.

    Have a good Shabbos!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/15753744871120451725 Avrohomk

    It is nice to think that you can excite the kids so much that they won't abuse the internet but, I am sorry to say, that is not going to work. I am an educator and I have spoken to many excellent educators about these issues. There is nothing new to the war against the yetzer hara. I am sorry if that sounds old fashion but its true. If someone is seduced to do an aveira they will be caught up in it and it takes a lot to get him out. All the excitement and love etc. that we give our talmidim will not stop the internet from ruining lives if the exposure is not supervised. There is a passuk that we are all familiar with – Sur mera vaseh tov. You can have all the E's you want but it will not do the job if the Ra is left untouched.

  • Anonymous

    Dovid Teitelbaum, thank you for agreeing with me on this one.
    "Porn, while bad, doesn't turn people off from yidishkeit. I think of it as another terrible addiction such as smoking. It needs to be dealt with but kids shouldn't feel like they are crazy if they are caught with it."
    It is so much easier to blame everything on modern technology and porn, instead of tackling the real problems.

  • Anonymous

    As I read Rabbi Gottliebs letter (and all those who continuously criticize you) it once again got me really upset how he twisted your words. When I read Rabbi Teitlebaums open letter I understood from the contents that you are expressing your opinion and voicing your ideas. Instead of Rabbi gotleib and all other askanim, reading it as its meant to be (another opinion) they attack and call anyone who doesn’t think exactly like them, or as in this case, a person who has different ideas, a person going against our rabbis and a person who is matir the internet for children without control. The question begs to be asked “Why are they afraid to consider other opinions?”

    One thing is certain this is not a question of what came first the chicken or the egg, the rabbamin did not come to these askanim organizing the ichud, asking what can be done. These few individuals came to the rabbanim for their own purpose, for their own agenda (whether for kavod, money, or hiding their own skeletons in the closet) telling all kinds of stories, some greatly exaggerated, how bad cell phone are, how destructive internet is, and of course the rabbanim listen and agree. If they would really mean the chinuch of our children and the future of yiddishkeit, why do they get so upset with someone else’s view? What is wrong with including all ideas at such a big event? It’s the perfect opportunity to try all ideas, especially when the ideas the ichud wants to implement were already tried and it failed. How do I know that? Once rabbi gotleib came out with his letter I decided to do some research and find out who are these askanim? well to my (not so) surprise I found out that one of the askanim that you see in all pictures is the same one who tried to impose in isreal all frum shtick , kosher cell phones, kosher buses etc, he is on the vaad mishmeres tzniot (plenty dirty stories there too). Well if you will do some research you will see for yourself that a lot of mosdot in Israel adapted this policy that if you don’t have the kosher cell phones your children are dismissed from the mosdot. (Let’s not discuss the point that most Frum people in Israel have 2 phones for this very reason). Can anybody please tell me did the situation become better controlled since this went into effect several years ago? The answer is a resounding no!!!! The statistics say that in the last year about 1000 chareidi boys and girls in Jerusalem dropped out!!

    Now they are trying to impose it all here with kosher cell phones, kosher cameras, and one of the main things at the ichud is their very own kosher computers with internet. Yes internet is a very big problem if you don’t teach our children what is usir and what is mutir, what is wrong and what is right. Any land line phone can be used the wrong way, you teach a child not to call those deadly phone numbers. Internet is a part of life today and it is only going to become more and more. You give your child guidance in all aspect of life, get used to it, it’s a new aspect of life, give him guidance here to, how to deal with it, how to behave with it as Rabbi Teitelbaum says.

  • http://harediandproud.wordpress.com/ Harediandproud

    Reb Dovid, you seem to be taking things a bit more heated then intended, understandable with the name calling you're getting, but take a step back here for a second.

    In my blog I said filters are important but you seemed to ignore that.

    You say they're important, but also say they won't work. You say "Filters sound good, but they are not the solution." Nowhere do you say that everyone must have a filter but it's not enough, you just promote some vague notion of filters being "good". Bottom line, should every individual have one or not?

    The you write the kicker which indicates to me that you are missing the boat here. You say "A filter is only as effective as much as the person using it wants to be filtered." To which I responded in my post that we are not targeting those who are looking to misbehave, but rather the vast majority of Klal Yisroel, innocent bystanders, who can and have been getting hurt by the bottle of poison left open on the kitchen counter, the internet.

    Who is to say you arent trying to sell a filter product or ISP to the public that they shouldn't have to purchase. K9 and other filter software has been around since the beginning of the internet and it was always free.

    Agreed, K9 is fine, I use it myself. Where did I ever say that the filter must cost money? How do you know the Rabbonim will demand only costly solutions?

    A simple ad in the paper to notify the public about that would have been a good idea, dont you think?

    No. There have been many ads and kol korei's etc and there are still people who underestimate how dangerous unfiltered internet is and persist in the mistaken belief that "men main
    nisht mir"….until chalilah they find out otherwise.

    In America, it's all about PR and Geratschka. Unfortunate? Maybe so, but this is the reality.

    you claim the internet was never banned (which is a lie)

    R' Dovid, I challenge you here and now to provide evidence of a ban on the internet. The furthest Rabbonim have gone is to ban unfiltered internet (or w/o chavrosus etc) as well as ban people who don't need it for business or other important reasons. In other words internet for entertainment and recreation has been banned, but overall, NEVER.

    I challenge you to prove otherwise, chapter and verse. You may believe that internet should be available for fun as well, but you cannot falsely claim that Rabbonim have banned internet in toto. You are entitled to your own opinion just not your own facts.

    so than how come the Chareidi papers never put in ads to the public to download these filters over all these years.

    They have. Charedi newspapers have editorialized for years on the dangers of the internet. As to ads, well that would require someone to pay for them. Besides I'm sure there have been ads over the years, do you know that there haven't that you make this accusation? Did you call Hamodia and the Yated before you assume that there have been no ads about this?

    Think about it. The public isnt as stupid as you think, they get whats going on.

    I'm assuming you mean to say that it's all a money making scheme to sell filters or whatever. And here, I'm sad to say, you seem to be showing your true colors. Accusing Choshuve, elderly Rabonnim of going through all this tirchah to sell a few filter subscription? R' MS? Skulener Rebbe?

    Please tell me I've misunderstood your last statement. As it stands it appears to be cynicism at it's worst and unbecoming for a Frum Yid.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    I think privacy settings are a big part of it. Also these kids will see all these things in the real world as well.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Check this out, its being done already! http://torahlive.co.il/index.php

  • Anonymous

    see "the boy and the zonah"

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    Im not sure about what point we disagree on?

  • Anonymous

    It is a shame that Dovid Teitelbaum had the need to start off saying that everyone has a right to their opinion…. he calls it as he sees it & his words ring so true.

    Since when is it frum to treat the symptom instead of the illness? Chazal told us a long time ago that Torah is compared to medicine; & in the right dosage it cures, & in the wrong dosage it can kill….

    Hence the comments quoted by Rav Freifeld & Rav Hirsch…. all mechanchim & rabbanim should have these quotes emblazoned on their tefillin mirrors; so when they check to see that their tefillin are on properly, their heads will be set on properly.

    Why do the current Rabbanim & Mechanchim not follow what Chazal say about Torah being like medicine & realize that if everything that is not strictly according to their own hashkafa is assur, then it will be hard for kids to learn to love HaShem. Rambam says clearly that first comes Ahavat HaShem & then Yirat HaShem & according to Rambam; that is recognizing what HaShem does for us & then we come to love Him & fear His being kol yachol & then fear sin.

    For those who say that teaching love can't answer the Yetzer Hara, they need to realize that HaShem knows how & why we have a yetzer hara, He created it in all manking – they should therefore be more obvious in their recognition that HaShem judges us based on our kishronos, & not impossibly high standards of perfection.

    Let their over-riding awareness be pshat in V'ahavta l'reyacha kamocha, where v'ahavta is causing others to love HaShem thru the example of their own actions. Even the best child in a class, who does not do the things that are being discussed will have a rather negative example & how can they come to love HaShem based on that???

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/12081509358902945801 Unknown

    what they need to do is get someone who knows what they are doing and educated the parents in filters. when i was secular i was in charge of my home computer network for my family(mainly my 2 sister who we were trying to keep out of trouble) and after some trial and error i found a pretty solid system that they couldn't get around. it would take 5 minutes(and the software is free from microsoft) to set such a system up on a computer today. but it would take the parents learning the system and up keeping and maintaining it periodically. that is the biggest whole. it can be done, it' just that nobody wants to put in the time and effort to learn. which is a shame, because if it's this important and can be done this easily it should be a top priority.

  • Elokei avi bezri

    @Avrohomk,

    DT was not talking about not supervising in re: the internet (or anything else). It isn't just excitement he is talking about, but replacing distractions w/appreciation & inspiration, & ultimately the enlightenment to Torah values that we are supposed to be imparting to the next generation & the real issue of why being involved w/the wrong things on the internet is improper.

    We need to teach more of the why's than the what (if it isn't Torah, it is assur).

    If we just tell kids that anything besides Torah is assur, how will they learn to appreciate Torah when Torah values are not explained to them?

    Approval brokering (all that is not Torah is assur) will only teach them to be approval, rather than Ovdei HaShem b/c they know better. (BTW, I certainly hope some of our kids learn science & biology well, we NEED frum doctors).

    More stress is placed on conformity for its own sake than for the sake of serving HaShem. There is no mitzva to be Yeshivish, but there is a mitzva to use one's kochos to try to grow & serve HaShem better…. Isn't this what Chinuch is supposed to be all about? Saying that everything that is not Torah is assur just does not fill the bill.

    Mah Tov, umah HaShem Doresh mimcha? Ki im asot mispat, ahavat chesed, v'hatzna lechet im Elokecha.

    Those are not my words, but the words of the Navi Michah that chazal tell us is the purpose of our lives in a nutshell.

    Does approval brokering (all that is not Torah is assur) fulfill what Michah HaNavi taught, or do we need to look for ways to inspire our children, help them appreciate the value of Torah values, and make then want to follow HaShem's ways & Torah? That is what DT was talking about.

    Are the quotes from Rav Hirsch & Rav Freifeld incorrect?

    You be the judge.

    If those quotes are true, then why don't we change the chinuch to instill the kinds of inspiration & dedication that DT is recommending?

    All of the E's he mentions seem to be a concrete place to start – real values & ideas; rather than just calling everything that is not Torah assur. DT is not criticizing, but pointing the way to real values & approaches which will help.

    Of course, it is easier to just say that something is assur; rather than taking the trouble to teach appreciation of the beauty of Torah & the Torah way of life.

    But at what cost? Nothing less than the neshamos of our children who will grow up to be the same kind of closed minded approval brokers that their role models were if we don't teach them better; in the ways the Navi tells us what really matters.

    Unless of course, you wish to say that the quotes of Rav Hirsh & Rav Freifeld are wrong & the Navi Michah is outdated.

  • Anon1

    I'm really bothered that so much of frum public discourse has been hijacked by manipulative control freaks with personal agendas. The true Gedolim and the Rabbonim I typically meet are not that way at all. Somehow, our community has to restore order.

  • curious george

    Avrohomk, I think you are well aware that Lakewood is a city that has been doing the most out of all the cities in America to try to lock out the internet from Torahdike homes. And I assume you know that Lakewood is also reported to have one of the highest rates of off the derech kids in the country.

    Maybe, just maybe, something is wrong with Lakewood's approach???

  • Anonymous

    Some lakewood kids are really not normal. some were molested. But the number one reason for going OTD is because lakewood is a very high pressure place, and when the kids don't fit the exact mold (like white shirt) they are treated like dirt by the parents and schools. and this is the number one reason.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/11833754733241213439 Dovid Teitelbaum

    test

  • Chevraman

    Reb Dovid:

    I read your very insightful letter, and while you do bring up some good points, I feel that your overall assessment is incorrect. Let me explain.

    You have thrown in the towel and have completely given up on taharas Am Yisroel.  You suggest that the internet is and will be a fact of life for everyone including children. I disagree. I do so, because B"H I am raising a large family here in Monsey, and my children don't even know what the word Facebook means. And they're not stupid. Even I, that uses a filtered internet at the office regularly, don't fully understand or for that matter have any interest in understanding social media sites. to me it's all about undressing in public.

    If parents so desire, they have the free choice to ban internet from their homes, and give their kids kosher phones if they need one at all. For me, this choice comes with sacrifice. I run my own business, and often I must travel 10 minutes each way, if I need to use the internet at night. But frankly, that is a much smaller sacrifice than sacrificing the purity of the nesdhamos of my children. The same goes for texting. The only phones in my family plan that have text enabled, is that of mine and my wife's which enables her to text me w/o disturbing my learning which I do half a day. My children have no access to texting whatsoever. The bottom line is, parents have choices. If they are homicidal enough to give their kids access to these mashchisim,  there is know way our mechanchim can win, regardless of how exciting they make their lessons. The internet, smartphones, social media, & texting  are all highly addictive, especially for teens. Once they have it, it's a lost battle, and yes, you are correct, filters will be pretty useless.

    You assert that since we've lost the battle anyway, let's win by providing a Yiddishkeit that competes. R' Dovid, sorry to say, we can't compete! Not because we have an inferior product, but because kids are simply not mature enough to choose education over addictive toys. Ask any Rebbe in MO schools. The kids are gone. And I hate to say, but the very same way so many of the ehrliche Yidden that came from Europe at the beginning of the 20th century lost their kids rachmonoh litzlan , b/c they didn't want to hold them back from blending in with American culture, parents today are doing exactly the same thing with the internet. They are KILLING their kids. I'm told that nearly half of MO kids are now texting on Shabbos. This is the beginning of the end. Their Grandkids  R"L will be married to goyim.

    In your line of work, apparently that is the clientele you are dealing with. They need to be educated forcefully and graphically about the price they are paying for their permissive attitude. We, Bnai Torah, who are doing the best we can to shelter our kids from this menace, need to be educated how to best protect ourselves, lest when using the internet when we have to, be subject to unwanted filth. And that is what filters do pretty well. For those kids (and there are plenty of them) in our camp who try to gain access to the internet and to prohibited sites, you are correct, filters are no more than a car alarm for a car thief. However, the internet is not necessarily the problem for these kids.they are on the streets anyway, and for these kids, they have to be dealt with from the bottom up. Let's remember that kids at risk is an age old problem that started with Yishmael and Eisav.

  • Dovid Teitelbaum

    I'd like to respond to you because you seem like someone that truly cares about the things you mention. Here are my few points.
    While you say you have a beautiful large family in Monsey but your kids dont even know what the word facebook means. You probably have a beautiful  and large family but your kids probably have facebook accounts too. How do I know this because I speak with hundreds of teenagers that parents tell me the same thing as you, and at the same time im friends with them on facebook. If you take a look at my stats you will see that I have more unique ip address hits from lakewood and monsey then there are frum jews in those neighborhoods. this means that EVERY jewish family has internet despite the ban on it. You can argue with stats.
    What you say about MO kids is a lie propagated by the yeshivish community. The numbers are very small and it has nothing to do with texting being addictive it has to do with not have a proper shabbos home to be in.
    As a matter of fact the drop out rate from Lakewood and the Chardeim in Israel is more than triple the rate of MO kids!
    About sheltering your kids to much please read my post about Sheltering kids to much and what Rav Hirsch says about it. 
    http://www.campsci.com/dovidsblog/wp-admin/themes.php?page=custom-header

  • Chevraman

    Reb Dovid:

    I read your very insightful letter, and while you do bring up some good points, I feel that your overall assessment is incorrect. Let me explain.

    You have thrown in the towel and have completely given up on taharas Am Yisroel.  You suggest that the internet is and will be a fact of life for everyone including children. I disagree. I do so, because B”H I am raising a large family here in Monsey, and my children don’t even know what the word Facebook means. And they’re not stupid. Even I, that uses a filtered internet at the office regularly, don’t fully understand or for that matter have any interest in understanding social media sites. to me it’s all about undressing in public.

    If parents so desire, they have the free choice to ban internet from their homes, and give their kids kosher phones if they need one at all. For me, this choice comes with sacrifice. I run my own business, and often I must travel 10 minutes each way, if I need to use the internet at night. But frankly, that is a much smaller sacrifice than sacrificing the purity of the nesdhamos of my children. The same goes for texting. The only phones in my family plan that have text enabled, is that of mine and my wife’s which enables her to text me w/o disturbing my learning which I do half a day. My children have no access to texting whatsoever. The bottom line is, parents have choices. If they are homicidal enough to give their kids access to these mashchisim,  there is know way our mechanchim can win, regardless of how exciting they make their lessons. The internet, smartphones, social media, & texting  are all highly addictive, especially for teens. Once they have it, it’s a lost battle, and yes, you are correct, filters will be pretty useless.

    You assert that since we’ve lost the battle anyway, let’s win by providing a Yiddishkeit that competes. R’ Dovid, sorry to say, we can’t compete! Not because we have an inferior product, but because kids are simply not mature enough to choose education over addictive toys. Ask any Rebbe in MO schools. The kids are gone. And I hate to say, but the very same way so many of the ehrliche Yidden that came from Europe at the beginning of the 20th century lost their kids rachmonoh litzlan , b/c they didn’t want to hold them back from blending in with American culture, parents today are doing exactly the same thing with the internet. They are KILLING their kids. I’m told that nearly half of MO kids are now texting on Shabbos. This is the beginning of the end. Their Grandkids  R”L will be married to goyim.

    In your line of work, apparently that is the clientele you are dealing with. They need to be educated forcefully and graphically about the price they are paying for their permissive attitude. We, Bnai Torah, who are doing the best we can to shelter our kids from this menace, need to be educated how to best protect ourselves, lest when using the internet when we have to, be subject to unwanted filth. And that is what filters do pretty well. For those kids (and there are plenty of them) in our camp who try to gain access to the internet and to prohibited sites, you are correct, filters are no more than a car alarm for a car thief. However, the internet is not necessarily the problem for these kids.they are on the streets anyway, and for these kids, they have to be dealt with from the bottom up. Let’s remember that kids at risk is an age old problem that started with Yishmael and Eisav.

    • DovidTeitelbaum

      I’d like to respond to you because you seem like someone that truly cares about the things you mention. Here are my few points.
      While you say you have a beautiful large family in Monsey but your kids dont even know what the word facebook means. You probably have a beautiful  and large family but your kids probably have facebook accounts too. How do I know this because I speak with hundreds of teenagers that parents tell me the same thing as you, and at the same time im friends with them on facebook. If you take a look at my stats you will see that I have more unique ip address hits from lakewood and monsey then there are frum jews in those neighborhoods. this means that EVERY jewish family has internet despite the ban on it. You can argue with stats.
      What you say about MO kids is a lie propagated by the yeshivish community. The numbers are very small and it has nothing to do with texting being addictive it has to do with not have a proper shabbos home to be in.
      As a matter of fact the drop out rate from Lakewood and the Chardeim in Israel is more than triple the rate of MO kids!
      About sheltering your kids to much please read my post about Sheltering kids to much and what Rav Hirsch says about it. 
      http://www.campsci.com/dovidsblog/wp-admin/themes.php?page=custom-header

      • Guest

        Teitelbaum, either you’re a bona fide hater of the yeshivish community or a completely clueless individual. Either way, you’ve proved that your opinions are worthless and pure garbage. What he wrote about MO teens texting on shabbos was NOT a LIE propagated by the yeshiva community, but a news story broken the the Jewish Week, not by any means a yeshivish website!!

        So sit down, take a deep breath, and read this:

        http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/national/many_orthodox_teens_half_shabbos_way_life

        Now I await your confession that you’re just one big clueless blabbermouth

        • S5g7

          “If in previous generations the biggest challenge to Sabbath observance was making a living, today it is technology,” Rabbi Goldmintz wrote in his column to Ramaz parents.

          ’nuff said, Teitelbaum.

          • DovidTeitelbaum

            And I disagree with Rabbi Goldmintz. I have many many MO teens as facebook friends and I have yet to see anyone of them post anything on facebook on shabbos. (yes you can backtrack post on facebook)

        • DovidTeitelbaum

          I dont have any hate to any community, I just hate LIES. If you look at what I was replying to was his comment ”
           I’m told that nearly half of MO kids are now texting on Shabbos. This is the beginning of the end. Their Grandkids  R”L will be married to goyim.” . That is a lie about the MO community. First half of them aren’t texting, second there are just as many lakewood boys texting as MO boys. Its the ones that lost their connection to yidishkeit that text, nothing to do with addiction. That is the point I was making. You on the other hand do sound like a hater.

          • guest

            The mother of all ironies!!

            You write you hate lies when you yourself lied!! YOU wrote that the MO texting on Shabbos was made up by the yeshivish community. That was a LIE. It was propagated by the jewish week which is not affiliated with the yeshivish community

            And how do you know how many are or aren’t texting? You took a poll of all MO?

            And what was your point in slinging back that in lakewood they do it too? Are you little child that loves to bicker – “nananana, you also are no good”?

          • DovidTeitelbaum

            Again. The LIE i was referring to is that half MO kids text! That is propaganda. Unless YOU took a poll then you shouldnt say it. I pointed out that lakewood kids text to because the original commentor seemed to imply it was only MO. 

            Im not sure why you always resort to insults.

          • S5g7

            Correct, that was what you were refering to, but you still lied when you claimed that it was made up by the yeshivish community. Why haven’t you yet retraced from that motzi shem ra?

          • S5g7

            Another lie written above by you:

            “If you thought this Asifa was about porn than your making a big mistake”

            I assume that you read finks “in support of asifa” post (being that you commented on it), where he confirms per his conversation with the ichud that the main concern is about porn

    • Chevraman

      Reb Dovid:

      You are wrong. My children have zero access to the internet. That’s b/c we know where they are and what they are doing at ALL times. We are real PARENTS, not control freaks! And don”t think I don’t daven 3x a day that things should remain that way. Are there plenty of kids in Lakewood, Monsey & BP on the internet? U bet! But if u think that we all have lost the battle, you are absolutely wrong!! You are busy chatting with intenet users, so of course from your perspective EVERYONE is on the internet. BH in my immediate neighborhood and in my extended family, I KNOW that at least 90% are clueless when it comes to the web. And I don’t say this naievly. There is still purity out there. It’s only a matter how hard parents are willing to parent, and be masgiach over their children. My kids are only allowed to vist the homes of friends that are internet free. I send them to school that has banned internet from the homes (even though there are certainly those that cheat). So to say it’s impossible, and we’ve lost the battle is simply SURRENDER. Once again, as I stated in my original post, internet is not the begininning and end to all our woes, althought it’s a very large part of it. If there is a kid that is disenfranchised with learning or Yiddishkeit, regardless of the reason, he will look for other outlets, and inndeed today the easiest to gain access to is the internet. But Eisav & Yishmael didn’t have internet and they had parents who were gedolei hador and still the went off. The Gemara tells us that Yeshayahu told Chizkiyahu HaMelech that despite knowing that his kids will go OTD, he has no right to meddle in G-d’s affairs. In essence, for whatever reason HaShem decreed that some kids will go OTD no matter what. Of course there are those that have very difficult personalities (I have a few of those), and we are challenged to make the right decisions, and we have to daven very hard for siyata d’ishmaya. But there are plenty of kids that parents MURDER by being negligent with the diamonds HaShem entrusted them with to polish and shine properly, and instead they allow their neshamos to be sullied with dung.  For that, they will have to give a big din v’cheshbone. Did they surrender or fight for taharas hakodesh?

      R’ Dovid, you seem like your heart is in the right place. Don’t destroy your kids, with the excuse of enlightenment.

  • Shaya Rubin

    Thanks Dovid. I enjoyed your post. Warm Regards.

  • Shaya Rubin

    Thanks Dovid. I enjoyed your post. Warm Regards.

  • YoungerLight
  • DovidTeitelbaum

    You seem like someone who is honest with his opinions so Im not sure why you have to be anonymous. But I would like to take you to task on your very first paragraph. you write
    "Several blogs have gotten much publicity mocking or at least questioning the legitimacy of the widely publicized Internet Asifa at Citi Field (on May 20th). This should hardly come as a surprise as negativity sells (this is scientifically proven). What few blogs seem interested in is intellectual honesty in both recognizing the severity of the issue, and the need to address it. Instead, consistent double standards get thrown at "the Gedolim."
    My post was neither of the two you mentioned. In fact it was an open letter, meaning, i think you are approaching this wrong and here are my suggestions… You then say that negativity sells and you are wrong about that too. My blog went viral not because It was negative but because it was positive. If I had just bashed the Asifa like others I might have gotten some attention but because it was written with logic and respect, I got an incredible amount of exposure, let alone hundreds of emails and phone calls from rabanim, rosh yeshivas and parents that felt I spoke for them. About the double standard, there is validity in that as it was the same Ichud (gotlieb)  that blackmailed all the schools to sign the internet ban over 10 years back. This caused so many long term problems I dont know where to begin!

  • YoungerLight
    • DovidTeitelbaum

      You seem like someone who is honest with his opinions so Im not sure why you have to be anonymous. But I would like to take you to task on your very first paragraph. you write
      “Several blogs have gotten much publicity mocking or at least questioning the legitimacy of the widely publicized Internet Asifa at Citi Field (on May 20th). This should hardly come as a surprise as negativity sells (this is scientifically proven). What few blogs seem interested in is intellectual honesty in both recognizing the severity of the issue, and the need to address it. Instead, consistent double standards get thrown at “the Gedolim.”
      My post was neither of the two you mentioned. In fact it was an open letter, meaning, i think you are approaching this wrong and here are my suggestions… You then say that negativity sells and you are wrong about that too. My blog went viral not because It was negative but because it was positive. If I had just bashed the Asifa like others I might have gotten some attention but because it was written with logic and respect, I got an incredible amount of exposure, let alone hundreds of emails and phone calls from rabanim, rosh yeshivas and parents that felt I spoke for them. About the double standard, there is validity in that as it was the same Ichud (gotlieb)  that blackmailed all the schools to sign the internet ban over 10 years back. This caused so many long term problems I dont know where to begin!

      • YoungerLight

        Hi,

        I am not really anonymous as there is some information available on my blog, but I had to remove some for work reasons. [Parenthetically, I went to CSI and loved your father z”l.]

        I agree that your blog was not particularly mean or vengeful, and for that reason I both read it and wrote some of my own thoughts. I am never interested in “haters” who shoot from the hip.

        That being said, I still believe that there were some strong mistakes in logic that weren’t fair:
        1) The arguments against filters, because some technologically savvy kids can break them, is not incredibly relevant. We still aim for the masses if individuals will fail; we’ll deal with them separately.
        2) The fact that the Gedolim intended to ban the Internet forever in 2005 is a popular misconception, but also not true. As I explained, they felt it was a possible solution then, but not for now. Even back then, the fact that many did not follow their words does not prove that they were foolish, shortsighted, or anything of the sort. (See my admittedly bold comparison to Shabbos where many did not listen to Rabbonim).
        3) As a comment on FinkorSwim pointed out, your belief that positive chinuch should be used does not need to be an attack or letter to anyone about the asifa. It could have been written months ago about the Internet, or months from now. This is what they’re doing now, it seems innocuous at worst, and need not be ridiculed because you disagree with their specific methodology.
        4) Most bothersome to me, all of your points were assumptions. You mention a pamphlet, though you did not make it clear what you were referring to. Had your post been written on May 21, it would have been easier to swallow, but guessing what they’ll say and then arguing? Seems unfair to me.

        Thank you for responding and allowing a forum for intelligent debate.

        • DovidTeitelbaum

          I wish I had the pamphlet to upload now but I dont. It was put out by the Ichud in reference to the Citi Field and was all about filters. I saw it on pesach and wrote my blog the day after. I wrote it as an open letter.. meaning, i think you are making a huge mistake. After my blog went viral they changed course and said it isnt about filters. They still have no goal for this mass gathering, just that it will be about the dangers of the internet, as if we all havent heard that a million times.
          About whether the “gedolim” banned the internet it is very confusing. Mostly because just like this event there really isnt any official vote and most rabonim are not told everything. In short, this event was advertised as ALL the gedolim, they had a meeting with all the rabonim in the neighborhood, they discussed the problems of the internet, but the rabbis never gave the consent for the big event. The person behind this event, behind ichud, was the same person that blackmailed the yeshivos 10 years ago into signing the ban letters. I spoke with the heads of the yeshivos this week and they told me they were forced to sign the ban. 
          And for the hundredth time, everyone should have a filter just dont for a second believe its a deterrent.
          I believe you mean well and are trying to speak up for the gedolim, but instead your defending ads and letters that are written by kanaim that have their own agendas.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    I wish I had the pamphlet to upload now but I dont. It was put out by the Ichud in reference to the Citi Field and was all about filters. I saw it on pesach and wrote my blog the day after. I wrote it as an open letter.. meaning, i think you are making a huge mistake. After my blog went viral they changed course and said it isnt about filters. They still have no goal for this mass gathering, just that it will be about the dangers of the internet, as if we all havent heard that a million times.
    About whether the "gedolim" banned the internet it is very confusing. Mostly because just like this event there really isnt any official vote and most rabonim are not told everything. In short, this event was advertised as ALL the gedolim, they had a meeting with all the rabonim in the neighborhood, they discussed the problems of the internet, but the rabbis never gave the consent for the big event. The person behind this event, behind ichud, was the same person that blackmailed the yeshivos 10 years ago into signing the ban letters. I spoke with the heads of the yeshivos this week and they told me they were forced to sign the ban. 
    And for the hundredth time, everyone should have a filter just dont for a second believe its a deterrent.
    I believe you mean well and are trying to speak up for the gedolim, but instead your defending ads and letters that are written by kanaim that have their own agendas.

  • Anonymous

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  • inside info

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    here you got the truth !

  • Guest

    Teitelbaum, either you're a bona fide hater of the yeshivish community or a completely clueless individual. Either way, you've proved that your opinions are worthless and pure garbage. What he wrote about MO teens texting on shabbos was NOT a LIE propagated by the yeshiva community, but a news story broken the the Jewish Week, not by any means a yeshivish website!!

    So sit down, take a deep breath, and read this:

    http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/national/many_orthodox_teens_half_shabbos_way_life

    Now I await your confession that you're just one big clueless blabbermouth

  • S5g7

    “If in previous generations the biggest challenge to Sabbath observance was making a living, today it is technology,” Rabbi Goldmintz wrote in his column to Ramaz parents.

    'nuff said, Teitelbaum.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    I dont have any hate to any community, I just hate LIES. If you look at what I was replying to was his comment "
     I'm told that nearly half of MO kids are now texting on Shabbos. This is the beginning of the end. Their Grandkids  R"L will be married to goyim." . That is a lie about the MO community. First half of them aren't texting, second there are just as many lakewood boys texting as MO boys. Its the ones that lost their connection to yidishkeit that text, nothing to do with addiction. That is the point I was making. You on the other hand do sound like a hater.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    And I disagree with Rabbi Goldmintz. I have many many MO teens as facebook friends and I have yet to see anyone of them post anything on facebook on shabbos. (yes you can backtrack post on facebook)

  • guest

    The mother of all ironies!!

    You write you hate lies when you yourself lied!! YOU wrote that the MO texting on Shabbos was made up by the yeshivish community. That was a LIE. It was propagated by the jewish week which is not affiliated with the yeshivish community

    And how do you know how many are or aren't texting? You took a poll of all MO?

    And what was your point in slinging back that in lakewood they do it too? Are you little child that loves to bicker – "nananana, you also are no good"?

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    Again. The LIE i was referring to is that half MO kids text! That is propaganda. Unless YOU took a poll then you shouldnt say it. I pointed out that lakewood kids text to because the original commentor seemed to imply it was only MO. 

    Im not sure why you always resort to insults.

  • S5g7

    Correct, that was what you were refering to, but you still lied when you claimed that it was made up by the yeshivish community. Why haven't you yet retraced from that motzi shem ra?

  • S5g7

    Another lie written above by you:

    "If you thought this Asifa was about porn than your making a big mistake"

    I assume that you read finks "in support of asifa" post (being that you commented on it), where he confirms per his conversation with the ichud that the main concern is about porn

  • Dovid Rosenbaum

    I loved this article, and I commend your positiveness, which gives you credibility and sets you apart from other bloggers.  

    I agree with everything you wrote but I disagree that it is grounds to be critical of the current approach.  Here's why:  Going back to ancient times, our Rabbis did not legislate for a perfect society.  They enacted certain safeguards because they understood we are imperfect.  For example, they prohibited certain activities on Shabbos in order to preserve its sanctity.  These measures would not have been necessary had we the proper understanding and appreciation for Shabbos. Yet, their approach was not to educate the masses of the importance of Shabbos, but to tackle the immediate issue by prohibiting the actions.  Similarly, it is true that the problems we have with the internet run deep, and indeed, pre-date the internet itself.  But the immediate issue is that the availability of the internet is having a devastating affect on our children and threatens our families.  There has to be immediate action. I appreciate what you said about the insufficiency of the solutions currently posed but that requires us to continue the search for a viable solution.  G-d does not present us with insurmountable challenges. 

    I appreciate your objective and thoughtful article. Keep up the good work!

  • Dovid Rosenbaum

    I loved this article, and I commend your positiveness, which gives you credibility and sets you apart from other bloggers.  

    I agree with everything you wrote but I disagree that it is grounds to be critical of the current approach.  Here’s why:  Going back to ancient times, our Rabbis did not legislate for a perfect society.  They enacted certain safeguards because they understood we are imperfect.  For example, they prohibited certain activities on Shabbos in order to preserve its sanctity.  These measures would not have been necessary had we the proper understanding and appreciation for Shabbos. Yet, their approach was not to educate the masses of the importance of Shabbos, but to tackle the immediate issue by prohibiting the actions.  Similarly, it is true that the problems we have with the internet run deep, and indeed, pre-date the internet itself.  But the immediate issue is that the availability of the internet is having a devastating affect on our children and threatens our families.  There has to be immediate action. I appreciate what you said about the insufficiency of the solutions currently posed but that requires us to continue the search for a viable solution.  G-d does not present us with insurmountable challenges. 

    I appreciate your objective and thoughtful article. Keep up the good work!

  • Asifa

    What the Asifa is really about:
    http://i50.tinypic.com/2afmjab.jpg 

  • Chevraman

    Reb Dovid:

    You are wrong. My children have zero access to the internet. That's b/c we know where they are and what they are doing at ALL times. We are real PARENTS, not control freaks! And don''t think I don't daven 3x a day that things should remain that way. Are there plenty of kids in Lakewood, Monsey & BP on the internet? U bet! But if u think that we all have lost the battle, you are absolutely wrong!! You are busy chatting with intenet users, so of course from your perspective EVERYONE is on the internet. BH in my immediate neighborhood and in my extended family, I KNOW that at least 90% are clueless when it comes to the web. And I don't say this naievly. There is still purity out there. It's only a matter how hard parents are willing to parent, and be masgiach over their children. My kids are only allowed to vist the homes of friends that are internet free. I send them to school that has banned internet from the homes (even though there are certainly those that cheat). So to say it's impossible, and we've lost the battle is simply SURRENDER. Once again, as I stated in my original post, internet is not the begininning and end to all our woes, althought it's a very large part of it. If there is a kid that is disenfranchised with learning or Yiddishkeit, regardless of the reason, he will look for other outlets, and inndeed today the easiest to gain access to is the internet. But Eisav & Yishmael didn't have internet and they had parents who were gedolei hador and still the went off. The Gemara tells us that Yeshayahu told Chizkiyahu HaMelech that despite knowing that his kids will go OTD, he has no right to meddle in G-d's affairs. In essence, for whatever reason HaShem decreed that some kids will go OTD no matter what. Of course there are those that have very difficult personalities (I have a few of those), and we are challenged to make the right decisions, and we have to daven very hard for siyata d'ishmaya. But there are plenty of kids that parents MURDER by being negligent with the diamonds HaShem entrusted them with to polish and shine properly, and instead they allow their neshamos to be sullied with dung.  For that, they will have to give a big din v'cheshbone. Did they surrender or fight for taharas hakodesh?

    R' Dovid, you seem like your heart is in the right place. Don't destroy your kids, with the excuse of enlightenment.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    I guess we each have our way of chinuch. Personally I take the approach of RSRH. I wrote about it here. 

    http://dteitelbaum.blogspot.com/2012/03/sheltering-our-children.html 

  • Art Fried

    This they have not included Chabad and labeled them "Not part of Klal Yisroel" leads me to believe that this whole event is a farce and a money maker for someone.  Why don't you teach your disciples to do the correct thing, and what’s right and wrong and use the internet for positive things. Unfortunately, the rabbonim that you call gedolei hador don't know their ass from their elbow.
     
    You want to save the next generation… I believe they need to concentrate on what the Torah talks about first… ואהבת לרעך כמוך, אני יהוה, לא תרצח (האבן-עזרא אומר כי האיסור לרצוח הוא ביד או בלשון), מדבר שׁקר תרחק, לא תלך רכיל, אל תדין את חברך את שׁתגיא למקומו, לא תעמד על דם רעך, לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך, הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך ולא תשא עליו חטא, and "DON'T THROW INNOCENT KIDS OUT OF YESHIVA".
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v;=eX0X5CeURlQ
     
    What a screwed up phenomenon.  Why don’t you just do what the torah "Really" wants you to do and finished.
     
    I might as well continue since I believe I have an audience.
    We are so busy with garbage and forgot the main course.  We loshon hora, hurt people, bad mouth people, insult people, disrespect people, ugly family feuds, rebbe’s feuds, sinas chinum, and more.  We then fast in Tamuz for the chorben bais hamikdash, we don’t listen to music, we don’t shave, we don’t shower, we fast again… all because the bais hamikdash was destroyed for sinas chinom, all the while we still fight with each other and the sinas chinum continues.
     
    Then Elul shows up… We run early mornings to Shul for a week or so for S’lichos.  Then we have Rosh Hashanah… we run to the fish, then we spin a poor innocent chicken and kill it for “our” sins (we spin it, get it all dizzy before killing him/her, and the smart ones drop a load on us), then we walk around on Yom Kippur with bad breath all day, we then spend a fortune on a freaking fruit, we then sit outdoors in a Sukkah while it rains and spoils the food, then we smack again some poor leaves on the floor… but the loshon hora, rechilas, lies, sinas chinom continues… and bein odam l’chaveiroi is not even forgiven.
     
    …But there is a solution. Let’s round some 50,000 kelbelech into Citi-field and blame it all on the internet… all the while someone is making a fortune of a new search engine with filters.  Idiots.  Morons.
     
    Did you make sure to have “Ershte oiven matzhos, H’gulas keilim and Shaimois L’gnizah” with a moireh horouh oifen platz, Mehadrin L’mehadrin, while spreading vicious lies and attempting to destroy someone’s morale just to prove a point? As long as you don’t make Kiddush between six and seven… we stand in a perfect spot!!!
     
    Soooooo screwed up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    ואהבת לרעך כמוך, אני יהוה.  דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה!!!!!

  • Art Fried

    This they have not included Chabad and labeled them “Not part of Klal Yisroel” leads me to believe that this whole event is a farce and a money maker for someone.  Why don’t you teach your disciples to do the correct thing, and what’s right and wrong and use the internet for positive things. Unfortunately, the rabbonim that you call gedolei hador don’t know their ass from their elbow.
     
    You want to save the next generation… I believe they need to concentrate on what the Torah talks about first… ואהבת לרעך כמוך, אני יהוה, לא תרצח (האבן-עזרא אומר כי האיסור לרצוח הוא ביד או בלשון), מדבר שׁקר תרחק, לא תלך רכיל, אל תדין את חברך את שׁתגיא למקומו, לא תעמד על דם רעך, לא תשנא את אחיך בלבבך, הוכח תוכיח את עמיתך ולא תשא עליו חטא, and “DON’T THROW INNOCENT KIDS OUT OF YESHIVA”.
     
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eX0X5CeURlQ
     
    What a screwed up phenomenon.  Why don’t you just do what the torah “Really” wants you to do and finished.
     
    I might as well continue since I believe I have an audience.
    We are so busy with garbage and forgot the main course.  We loshon hora, hurt people, bad mouth people, insult people, disrespect people, ugly family feuds, rebbe’s feuds, sinas chinum, and more.  We then fast in Tamuz for the chorben bais hamikdash, we don’t listen to music, we don’t shave, we don’t shower, we fast again… all because the bais hamikdash was destroyed for sinas chinom, all the while we still fight with each other and the sinas chinum continues.
     
    Then Elul shows up… We run early mornings to Shul for a week or so for S’lichos.  Then we have Rosh Hashanah… we run to the fish, then we spin a poor innocent chicken and kill it for “our” sins (we spin it, get it all dizzy before killing him/her, and the smart ones drop a load on us), then we walk around on Yom Kippur with bad breath all day, we then spend a fortune on a freaking fruit, we then sit outdoors in a Sukkah while it rains and spoils the food, then we smack again some poor leaves on the floor… but the loshon hora, rechilas, lies, sinas chinom continues… and bein odam l’chaveiroi is not even forgiven.
     
    …But there is a solution. Let’s round some 50,000 kelbelech into Citi-field and blame it all on the internet… all the while someone is making a fortune of a new search engine with filters.  Idiots.  Morons.
     
    Did you make sure to have “Ershte oiven matzhos, H’gulas keilim and Shaimois L’gnizah” with a moireh horouh oifen platz, Mehadrin L’mehadrin, while spreading vicious lies and attempting to destroy someone’s morale just to prove a point? As long as you don’t make Kiddush between six and seven… we stand in a perfect spot!!!
     
    Soooooo screwed up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
    ואהבת לרעך כמוך, אני יהוה.  דרך ארץ קדמה לתורה!!!!!

  • Davidboro

    Dear Rabbi. Dovid Teitelbaum, I read your letter once twice and a third time, think you got a MAJOR miss understanding in this whole upcoming Internet gathering in citified NJ, and because of this, your thinking one thing, and Rabbi gotllieb is thinking of something else, and Moshe is meaning a different thing, and it's getting out of hand the whole situation! So let's get things moving a little. First and for all, the Kinas is NOT made for people that are bad, off the derrech, don't give a dam, smarter then everyone, prikas oll…..!!the all mentioned above are a minority, and need special AT&T.; Then there is a second group called the ON THE STRING group, which means people that are not bad or smarter, but just as you said, yiden walking around like a empty barrel, no depth in what means yidishkeit, no meaning of ahovos HASHEM and yiras HASHEM, just a man doing things like a robot! Then comes the third group called the DOVID TEITELBAUM group which means, a yid that the world smiles every day for his living in this world!, a true Torah yid. And for the last two groups is the Asifa called for, to save them from getting caught in that BAD MINUTE, and drowning in the big waves! To make sure klall Yisroel stays holly. And let me explain you something, having a good chinuch or not and starting to do shmuts on the Internet most of the times don't apply, because let's say a person like me who dose have a filter, wont go and break through the code for that bad minute, even though I did not get a DOVID TEITELBAUM chinuch….in other words a big massive Asifa with all gedolem, and a massive man power and force,can hold back MOST of klal Yisroel in falling in to dirt!! No question about it! And no one is "heading for a huge disappointment"! Because we all know that those left people that are BAD….won't help those solutions. ( an Asifa of child education would be a great idea, but don't mix it up with another problem) we are here to HELP those yiden not to get in to trouble! hatzlucha.

  • Davidboro

    Dear Rabbi. Dovid Teitelbaum, I read your letter once twice and a third time, think you got a MAJOR miss understanding in this whole upcoming Internet gathering in citified NJ, and because of this, your thinking one thing, and Rabbi gotllieb is thinking of something else, and Moshe is meaning a different thing, and it’s getting out of hand the whole situation! So let’s get things moving a little. First and for all, the Kinas is NOT made for people that are bad, off the derrech, don’t give a dam, smarter then everyone, prikas oll…..!!the all mentioned above are a minority, and need special AT&T. Then there is a second group called the ON THE STRING group, which means people that are not bad or smarter, but just as you said, yiden walking around like a empty barrel, no depth in what means yidishkeit, no meaning of ahovos HASHEM and yiras HASHEM, just a man doing things like a robot! Then comes the third group called the DOVID TEITELBAUM group which means, a yid that the world smiles every day for his living in this world!, a true Torah yid. And for the last two groups is the Asifa called for, to save them from getting caught in that BAD MINUTE, and drowning in the big waves! To make sure klall Yisroel stays holly. And let me explain you something, having a good chinuch or not and starting to do shmuts on the Internet most of the times don’t apply, because let’s say a person like me who dose have a filter, wont go and break through the code for that bad minute, even though I did not get a DOVID TEITELBAUM chinuch….in other words a big massive Asifa with all gedolem, and a massive man power and force,can hold back MOST of klal Yisroel in falling in to dirt!! No question about it! And no one is “heading for a huge disappointment”! Because we all know that those left people that are BAD….won’t help those solutions. ( an Asifa of child education would be a great idea, but don’t mix it up with another problem) we are here to HELP those yiden not to get in to trouble! hatzlucha.

  • Rabbi Yosef

    Nice article . You left out something of major consequences.The invitation recently of the Lubavitcher community by the acceptance of Rabbi Solomon offered by the Suclaner Rebbi despite BMG long time agreement with Rav Schach . Gives Lub  fuel to take troubled boys of Lakewood into their fold with no one to disagree. You have given them a stamp of approval to on  your kids. Further this is great PR for them to set up shop all over our communities. Not everything you think is proper, this can have damaging consequences on the frum .

  • Rabbi Yosef

    Nice article . You left out something of major consequences.The invitation recently of the Lubavitcher community by the acceptance of Rabbi Solomon offered by the Suclaner Rebbi despite BMG long time agreement with Rav Schach . Gives Lub  fuel to take troubled boys of Lakewood into their fold with no one to disagree. You have given them a stamp of approval to on  your kids. Further this is great PR for them to set up shop all over our communities. Not everything you think is proper, this can have damaging consequences on the frum .

  • Me

    Kudos to DT for saying it –he IS his father's son…fact is, the internet's like a gun–in the right hands it protects and even saves lives in the wrong hands it leaves you filing a police report and telling your credit card company to cancel your cards…(guess it also depends which 'end' you're looking at the gun at). To issue blanket issurim against it is probably the quickest way of (further) ensuring its proliferation…better is looking into more 'granular' solutions
      

  • Me

    Kudos to DT for saying it –he IS his father’s son…fact is, the internet’s like a gun–in the right hands it protects and even saves lives in the wrong hands it leaves you filing a police report and telling your credit card company to cancel your cards…(guess it also depends which ‘end’ you’re looking at the gun at). To issue blanket issurim against it is probably the quickest way of (further) ensuring its proliferation…better is looking into more ‘granular’ solutions
      

  • FriendNdeed

    I come from a different religious faith, but I share the concerns you are voicing. It is true that kids can out-smart filters (they can ask anyone at school). But the kids log onto computers WE parents bought for them. Society says a child is safe if we add filters, monitor their use, insist we be "friended" on Facebook. But these are farces. Anyone under 11 years old can bypass all of those rudimentary forms of security. We got rid of our son's computer and later found him surfing the internet on his PlayStation game console using a neighbor's Wi-Fi.   •••••••••   Killing is evil. Theft is evil. I hesitate before saying it, but I believe that drawing children away from the teaching of sane parents deserves to be called evil as well. Something must be done. God help us find it.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    Thank you for posting. Its great to hear from the wider population

  • FriendNdeed

    I come from a different religious faith, but I share the concerns you are voicing. It is true that kids can out-smart filters (they can ask anyone at school). But the kids log onto computers WE parents bought for them. Society says a child is safe if we add filters, monitor their use, insist we be “friended” on Facebook. But these are farces. Anyone under 11 years old can bypass all of those rudimentary forms of security. We got rid of our son’s computer and later found him surfing the internet on his PlayStation game console using a neighbor’s Wi-Fi.   •••••••••   Killing is evil. Theft is evil. I hesitate before saying it, but I believe that drawing children away from the teaching of sane parents deserves to be called evil as well. Something must be done. God help us find it.

    • DovidTeitelbaum

      Thank you for posting. Its great to hear from the wider population

  • an abused teen

    Dovid… please STOP!!!!! you are barking up the wrong tree. if you make a mockery of our Gedolim who will we have to lead us in any way? Our kids?
    ps. actually this may be a good idea…cuz then we know moshiach is on the way. Please rethink yournposition , or at least the way that you present. Your dear father is turning over in his grave, please STOP!!!!!

  • Gevaldik Guy

    As an IT person, I spend a lot of time on the web. I am very happy that I have filters for my computers. I know that if I really want I can find a way around them but that is not the point. A filter is a very basic thing like filtering water or insulation on electric wires or a lock on a car. As the expression goes, locks are made for honest people and filters are made so that I don’t accidentally get lost when surfing the web.

    Secondly, I think a major point of the asifa was to daven. This problem is huge and the level of immorality in this country is only getting worse. We need to daven to hashem that we and our children don’t get swept away in this tsunami of forbidden pleasures.

    Thirdly, because of the asifa at least three people in Chicago asked me about putting filters on their computers. People are unaware of how important it is to protect the kedusha of our homes with internet filters.

    Lastly, I am glad that I don’t have internet any more in my house. Sure I can’t buy plane tickets or check my bank account at home but I also don’t waste the hours upon hours of time that I used to waste. Instead of going to sleep past midnight I can now be fast asleep by 11:00 so I can daven early.
     

  • an abused teen

    Dovid… please STOP!!!!! you are barking up the wrong tree. if you make a mockery of our Gedolim who will we have to lead us in any way? Our kids?
    ps. actually this may be a good idea…cuz then we know moshiach is on the way. Please rethink yournposition , or at least the way that you present. Your dear father is turning over in his grave, please STOP!!!!!

  • Ralph Dwek

    No matter how well you present Torah and how exciting you make it, porn is always going to be more attractive. I suggest libido reducing drugs until teenagers are married. Some, such as Finasteride, have no side-effects.

  • Ralph Dwek

    No matter how well you present Torah and how exciting you make it, porn is always going to be more attractive. I suggest libido reducing drugs until teenagers are married. Some, such as Finasteride, have no side-effects.

  • Joshua_Sanchez

    The author states:

    "When you mock texting, you mock them. When you ban facebook you’re banning them and your distancing yourself from their world. As one teenager told me; “ I’m not addicted to my cellphone or facebook, I’m addicted to my friends,” and who of us isn't?"

    From my experience I can reveal that I was shocked and saddened to discover that some, probably many, school/yeshiva boys use their phones to routinely text each other crude jokes. While some boys clandestinely use a Facebook account to “keep in touch” with their friends, other boys in the same class do not even know what Facebook is! Also, Facebook is not always used just to “keep in touch”, but is used as a platform for insulting teachers/rebbes, using obscene language, corresponding with members of the opposite gender and discussing rude subjects. Merely listing these unfortunate things here will not necessarily make a big impression on a person, but when you actually see boys from good homes involved in the above, it does cause great distress. The author talks about the dangers of parents distancing themselves from their children’s world, but sometimes parents are already so removed from the mind of an average teenager, I can’t see how allowing technology to go unchecked would make it any better. Many parents would be shocked to tears if they truly knew how their darling children are behaving with the latest technology. Banning Facebook may not be the answer, but embracing it also is not.

  • Joshua_Sanchez

    The author states:

    “When you mock texting, you mock them. When you ban facebook you’re banning them and your distancing yourself from their world. As one teenager told me; “ I’m not addicted to my cellphone or facebook, I’m addicted to my friends,” and who of us isn’t?”

    From my experience I can reveal that I was shocked and saddened to discover that some, probably many, school/yeshiva boys use their phones to routinely text each other crude jokes. While some boys clandestinely use a Facebook account to “keep in touch” with their friends, other boys in the same class do not even know what Facebook is! Also, Facebook is not always used just to “keep in touch”, but is used as a platform for insulting teachers/rebbes, using obscene language, corresponding with members of the opposite gender and discussing rude subjects. Merely listing these unfortunate things here will not necessarily make a big impression on a person, but when you actually see boys from good homes involved in the above, it does cause great distress. The author talks about the dangers of parents distancing themselves from their children’s world, but sometimes parents are already so removed from the mind of an average teenager, I can’t see how allowing technology to go unchecked would make it any better. Many parents would be shocked to tears if they truly knew how their darling children are behaving with the latest technology. Banning Facebook may not be the answer, but embracing it also is not.

  • Marc Plotsker

    every time mordechai and I read one of your blogs we are amazed how you speak for thousands and thousands of teenagers. Keep doing what you are doing because the kids definitely need a person like you behind them. disregard all the negativity that comes your way. thank you for writing what some of us are actually thinking but are afraid to say. May you have hatzlacha with the direction that you are going in. We stand behind you all the way.

  • Marc Plotsker

    every time mordechai and I read one of your blogs we are amazed how you speak for thousands and thousands of teenagers. Keep doing what you are doing because the kids definitely need a person like you behind them. disregard all the negativity that comes your way. thank you for writing what some of us are actually thinking but are afraid to say. May you have hatzlacha with the direction that you are going in. We stand behind you all the way.

  • Clei Man

    You are a breath of much needed fresh air, Dovid!  Hatzlacha.

  • Clei Man

    You are a breath of much needed fresh air, Dovid!  Hatzlacha.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/16531577608381468891 juliangreenfield

    DT this is good but I had to read it 4 times before I finally reached out to your point.

    Pellet Grill

  • mortonjack

    I am closely related to a few of those behind the ichud hakiholos mind control fiasco. I have pages to write on this but I would like to give out a few simple thoughts on this.

    People need love, women especially need love. If you don't give your daughters or wives love someone else will. There are pimps who can sense the people who need love and use this to manipulate them. These pimps lurk online and in other places where the demographics that they are looking for congregate.

    You want your daughters to not to get picked up by pimps you need to give them love. You want your sons not to be susceptible to second-life you have to give them a good reality.

    Now here is something Asifa worthy. XXX who is bankrolling this stuff is very wealthy. He made his money in business. Now for some education, 4/5 businesses fail. In America, Jews are allowed to go to college and get an education or certification. If subscribers to Yeshivishism do not want to be broke, and slaves to the private school system that they cannot afford, the first thing that has to be done is to promote education and self sufficiency from a young age. This is the first step to drastically improving ones reality.

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    I understand. But what do you do about all those that never got an education and bought into the just learn system. What are they to do now?

  • mortonjack

    The question is better than the answer. The system fast-boats its subscribers into servitude by the time a person realizes that they actually have no education, are broke and deeply invested into this vortex it is very hard to get out without breaking personal moral codes. What have I done? I have taken a job in construction. I have started over.

    Now the better answer is that one can give their children a better future than they were given. One can give their children dignity and appreciation, give them time and show them that they are a priority.

    Let them earn some things by working for them, don't send them collecting as a past time.

    Have religion and science reconciled before you tell it to them, dont tell them you can prove Hashem.

    Wake them up in the morning and put them to sleep in a peaceful manner, dont shout kick them out at 6:45 for the bus and then scowl at them when they get home from detention at 7:00 at night.

    Give them days off school to spend with them if they are worn out, dont give them extra school at 7:00 PM

    Kiss them when they act out out, dont embarrass them for being stressed

    etc

  • mortonjack

    I am closely related to a few of those behind the ichud hakiholos mind control fiasco. I have pages to write on this but I would like to give out a few simple thoughts on this.

    People need love, women especially need love. If you don’t give your daughters or wives love someone else will. There are pimps who can sense the people who need love and use this to manipulate them. These pimps lurk online and in other places where the demographics that they are looking for congregate.

    You want your daughters to not to get picked up by pimps you need to give them love. You want your sons not to be susceptible to second-life you have to give them a good reality.

    Now here is something Asifa worthy. XXX who is bankrolling this stuff is very wealthy. He made his money in business. Now for some education, 4/5 businesses fail. In America, Jews are allowed to go to college and get an education or certification. If subscribers to Yeshivishism do not want to be broke, and slaves to the private school system that they cannot afford, the first thing that has to be done is to promote education and self sufficiency from a young age. This is the first step to drastically improving ones reality.

    • DovidTeitelbaum

      I understand. But what do you do about all those that never got an education and bought into the just learn system. What are they to do now?

      • mortonjack

        The question is better than the answer. The system fast-boats its subscribers into servitude by the time a person realizes that they actually have no education, are broke and deeply invested into this vortex it is very hard to get out without breaking personal moral codes. What have I done? I have taken a job in construction. I have started over.

        Now the better answer is that one can give their children a better future than they were given. One can give their children dignity and appreciation, give them time and show them that they are a priority.

        Let them earn some things by working for them, don’t send them collecting as a past time.

        Have religion and science reconciled before you tell it to them, dont tell them you can prove Hashem.

        Wake them up in the morning and put them to sleep in a peaceful manner, dont shout kick them out at 6:45 for the bus and then scowl at them when they get home from detention at 7:00 at night.

        Give them days off school to spend with them if they are worn out, dont give them extra school at 7:00 PM

        Kiss them when they act out out, dont embarrass them for being stressed

        etc

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    yesyt

  • DovidTeitelbaum

    5252